TMI? Not on this board:D
[sub]What slang meaning for thumb don’t I know?[/sub]
I can’t stand it anymore, I gotta say something.
The original comment has been bent completely out of shape. JD did * not * say “you look like a man” to ** Eve. **, or anything like that. She said, in the context of a conversation about transsexuals, where it was being openly acknowledged that Eve is transgendered, that when she first met Even she had a slight suspicion that Eve could be transgendered. The two comments are not the same thing at all. They don’t even mean the same thing.
Eve was deeply offended by the remark. That doesn’t mean that it was an incredibly offensive thing to say, or, if the general consensus is that it actually * was * an extraordinarily offensive thing to say, then I contend that this is a newly determined point of etiquette, and not something that is obvious or should be automatically understood by absolutely everyone.
I have seen comparisons drawn between what JD said and things like going up to a fat person and saying: “You sure are a fat pig” or saying to someone with acne scars “Wow, you’re a real pizzaface, aren’t you?” Well, such comparisons simply don’t hold up. First, because JD’s remark was not a gratuitous slam, as these remarks would be. A more accurate comparison would be if someone said to me that when they met me, they mentioned to their friend that they thought I was probably what was meant by “morbidly obese”. Or, speaking to someone about someone with acne, that they thought that they probably had a terrible time as an adolescent because of their skin problem. Both of those are neutral observations of facts, similar to what JD had said. Neutral observations of facts that it would be a little tacky, a little impolite to say, but hardly “cruel insults”, as JD’s remark is being portrayed. It is not reasonable to equate any reference to a potentially sensitive topic with a “cruel insult”, and JD’s remark has be repeatedly described as being “incredibly cruel”. That’s ridiculous.
Furthermore, it is fully understood that most fat people or acne scarred people are probably extremely sensitive about these things because they are considered unattractive things that many people might have shame or embarrassment about. * That is not equally true of being transgendered. * Why would anyone ** automatically assume ** that an openly transgendered person would be horribly ** insulted ** by the fact that someone would be able to suspect the fact that they are what they are? I for one see nothing to be embarrassed or ashamed about in being transgendered. Eve was born in the body of a man. She has done all that modern science can do to correct this and bring her body into congruence with her inner self. The fact that some hints of her former gender may remain should not be unbearably horrible to the point of despair for her, and if it is, I don’t think it is reasonable to expect other people to understand that about her without being informed in advance.
My ultimate point is this: this is a new area for most people. As a society, we are figuring this stuff out. The rules are being written as we go. If the rule is being written that it is not cool to mention that you can detect that someone is transgendered (even when they are completely open about it), great, we’ll stick to that rule. But since it is a brand new world, in a manner of speaking, I think it was actually Eve’s job, as the person who lives with this, to let JD know that her remark was impolite and hurtful, and that JD should know this for the future. I think Eve’s level of offense taking, and the resulting attacks on JD were pretty over the top.
Of course, it was on JD to recognize that she had hurt Eve’s feelings, and apologize for that. (I’m no great fan of JD, and as I say, everything after the original comment is not what I’m here to discuss. ) But I think that the core issues being discussed here affect us all, and that we need to discuss it separate from the personalities involved.
I’m sorry that Even was so wounded by this, truly, because I think Eve is very cool and funny and I like her. But I also hope that her skin thickens up a bit. As a morbidly obese person, I certainly wouldn’t get my panties in a twist because someone could tell that I was morbidly obese and mentioned in a conversation about morbid obesity that they had noticed it and mentioned it to someone else. It’s a fact. I’m not thrilled about it, but I’m not kidding myself about it either. If someone was mean to me and called me names and taunted me or otherwise tried to shame me, that would be different. (Actually, I still wouldn’t be too disturbed by it because I’m completely over letting my feelings be affected by the words and actions of people I have no respect for, but you get my meaning, I’m sure.)
And lastly, I think that it certainly didn’t help one bit that this all came about with the people and attitudes that it did attached to it, since I’m sure it never would have gotten this far and gotten so ugly if it had concerned people who were simply clumsy and clueless about these things, as opposed to people who are, well, JD & J-C. I’d like to think that if everyone who went ballistic over this could imagine the original comment coming out of the mouth of someone completely harmless, who, upon learning that they were offensive, simply apologized for being so stupid and promising to learn from their mistakes, would see that maybe it really wasn’t really that incredibly awful, just kinda stupid, and a learning opportunity for many.
Okay, got that off my chest. Carry on.
I’d just like to clarify something about my 4th paragraph above: yeah, I understand that in today’s society, with many people’s current attitudes, being transgendered might be embarrassing. But * it shouldn’t be, * any more than any other congenital abnormality should be embarrassing or shameful. And the transgendered themselves must be in the forefront when it comes to having a new attitude about it. People like Eve falling apart because their condition is detectable, and everyone gathering around and treating her like fine porcelain that has been shattered * doesn’t help. * It actually hurts, I think, because it perpetuates the idea that shame and embarrassment are in any way appropriate to the situation, when they are not and shouldn’t be. It’s just a kind of a birth defect that modern science can correct, no big whoop. The more drama that is attached to it, the easier it is for society to judge it.
IMO.
Okay…
The remarks were not percieved as harmless by Eve or many of us.
When called on their behaviour, Jersey and JC chose to be snide, belligerent, and then faux apologetic.
You gloss over their behaviour and then call into question the rights of others to take offense and then bring forth their grievances?
Do tell me what drugs you are on, because I want to know what could lead you to such a conclusion.
Enough, you raving moron.
If you had read that thread as well as this one completely, you would see the malice and cruelty inherent in Jersey and Joe’s words.
Eve did not fall apart. She handled herself with grace and dignity.
We are rallying around someone we respect and admire.
You are either unable to read, or so absolutely dense that nothing can enter your “mind.”
Stoid, my initial participation in that thread was to tell JD that she had been hurtful to Eve and she owed her an apology. I freely admit that I went “off the rails” after that, and my apology for doing so was sincere. I should absoutely have said what I said later by private email. I lost my temper and would have been MUCH better to have held my tongue, or expressed my feelings privately.
However, since you brought it up, let me ask you this.
I met you, and I did not view you as “morbidly obese.” I think you are being VERY hard on yourself. If I HAD, though, and I had confided in a loved one that I thought you WERE morbidly obese, that would be one thing.
If I had later, in some public arena where your weight was being discussed, said “yes, well, when I met Stoid, I told my loved one that she looked morbidly obese…what do YOU think?” and it had been clear that I hurt your feelings, don’t you think that I would have owed you an apology?
The fact is, having viewed Eve’s picture, I wish I were as beautiful as she is. Having not met her, I have no idea if she looks like she is transgendered. Reports by people who have met her, other than the one, seem to feel she does NOT look transgendered. She certainly is much more beautiful than me, and doesn’t look to ME like anything other than what she IS…a beautiful woman.
IT DOESN’T MATTER ONE WAY OR OTHER!!!
If I had hurt you deeply by publically stating something you found hurtful, wouldn’t I owe you an apology?
Fact is, if you hurt someone, even inadvertantly, you owe them an apology. IMHO
That’s not quite so, Stoid, at all. JD went out of her way to zing Eve by mentioning that she had been whispering to J_C about Eve’s supposed “mannishness” when they all met at a Dopefest. She didn’t make some on-topic comment about “suspecting” or “detecting” anything. JD’s statement was an unnecessary, distinct, intentional putdown.
Even, even if J_C and JD did, indeed, sit around at a Dopefest whispering about Eve (which I don’t necessarily believe) the only purpose JD could have had to bring that “fact” up in the thread in question was to be purposefully nasty to Eve. And when JD has made it clear that she finds Eve’s very existence as a transsexual person to be, at best, “abnormal” (that’s JD’s word, not mine) it’s not hard to imagine why she’d feel that she had every reason to say whatever she wanted about Eve. Eve is, by JD’s own definition and proclamation, a lesser entity. We’ve already seen significant evidence that in JD’s worldview, people she relegates to that category are not truly deserving of basic decency or respect. It’s the same story in every thread she sullies, she just picks different targets.
The fact that the insult went directly to the heart of what Eve (and KellyM and other TG/TS people) have to deal with, worry about and fear every blessed day of their lives makes it all the more atrociously meanspirited.
The fact that the insult is a flat out bold faced lie makes it all the more reprehensible.
The fact that the insult came at the expense of person who has shown herself far, far above and beyond stooping to such a debased way of “making a point” and came from someone who goes to such great lengths to trumpet her own moral, ethical and spiritual superiority because of her alleged Christianity makes it all the more hypocritical and appalling.
Eve is not a man. Eve doesn’t look like a man. The only reason to say otherwise – especially when aware of her status – is to be a jerk. There are no two ways about it.
And as far as I’m concerned, it isn’t Eve’s responsibility to “grow a thicker skin” because jerks abound who are willing to deny her the same basic courtesy she gives them. Any suggestion, after such an obvious and egregious offense, smacks strongly of blaming the victim.
The only parties in this entire sordid incident who deserve blame are Joe_Cool and Jersey Diamond. And that blame will continue to lay with them until they both make honest, unqualified apologies for treating Eve in such a disrespectful, hateful manner – nothing less than that will absolve them of what they have done.
Sigh.
I ** specifically ** said that the ** only ** remark I was talking about was the ** first ** one. ** Everything ** that followed was ** not ** what I was addressing. (I knew I’d end up having to repeat that)
** Scotticher, ** first, you are kind. As always.
Second, exactly as I said in my post, if we were in a public forum, discussing morbid obesity, and I was referring to myself as a morbidly obese person, and you then said you said that…no, I don’t think you would owe me an apology. That’s the whole point. It’s the truth. I’m admitting it. We’re talking about it. You saying you are aware that it’s true is not insulting to me, why should it be? If you called me a disgusting fat pig that made you sick, THAT would be insulting.
However, if I found it insulting anyway, and let you know that, yeah, the correct response would be to apologize for hurting my feelings. And I also said that in my post as well.
Anybody can end up feeling hurt by anything, and when those feelings are made known, yes, the correct response is to apologize, and I said that. I just don’t think that because someone feels hurt, that it necessarily means that the thing they found hurtful was necessarily that horrendous, objectively speaking.
And I really think that the people who keep attacking * that remark * are (or should be) pisssed off at all the * other * obnoxious and mean and ignorant things she said, but they keep coming back to that first remark and treating it like the crime of the century. If the original remark had been the only thing she’d said at all, I find it really difficult to believe that everyone would be referring to it as “incredibly cruel”. After all, look at the number of perfectly nice people who read it and wondered what the big deal was.
Well, that is the remark I responded to (initially, and the one I am NOT apologizing for.)
Both Jersey and Joe have a right to their opinons. They also have a right to express those opinions. I don’t necessarily agree with those opinions, but I might be wrong…I don’t think I am, but then I have been wrong before. And if people want to debate those opinions with them, I am fine with that. I no longer choose to do so.
However, it is one thing to express your objective opinions, and another to attach them to a particular person. Again, IMHO.
I cannot speak to intent, and I don’t think you can either. But you are mistaken about what was said. The exact quote that Eve herself singled out as being intolerably insulting:
“To be quite honest, I met Eve one time. It was at my first dopefest, I believe . I asked joe_cool, privately, if Eve was transgendered. It just seemed that way to me. I am not sure what quite gave it away . . . I don’t mean to hurt anyones feelings, it’s just the way I see things.”
Underling is mine. She wasn’t even sure why, much less saying that there was anything particularly masculine about her.
You are again assigning motive. And I think that is very difficult to argue, since neither of us is in her head. Maybe she did intend harm, I haven’t a clue and I’m not going to debate that. My point is that the remark itself was, at most, rude. Not “horribly cruel”.
As I said, I think this fact has had a huge impact on people’s perception of the remark. Hey, look at what you * thought * she had said!
I have no axe of any kind whatsoever to grind here. I’m not a friend to anyone in this, I’m not an enemy. I do generally like Eve a great deal more than I like JD and JC, tho. I just think that things have gotten a little mixed up because of all the emotional investment, of which I have none.
Stoid, you’re still operating from the position that Eve was wrong to have been insulted. You said so much.
You’re presuming that the cruelty that is being attached to JD’s comment(s) is manifested in Eve “falling apart” but there’s no evidence that Eve fell apart. Eve, as far as we know, simply said “I’ve had enough” and chose to depart from the situation. That’s not falling apart, that’s choosing battles wisely. I think she’s probably dealt, in her years as a TG/TS person, with enough crap and garbage (she’s said before that she’s been physically assaulted, for pete’s sake) that she can find better ways to spend her time than dealing with people who are so mentally deficient as to not be able to see how tempering their language might be a damned fine idea after 10 pages of Pit threads telling them just that.
But that’s not the source of the “cruel” label, at least not as far as I’m concerned. The response to the comments is immaterial; the comments JD made were cruel because they were made at first, without regard for the feelings of those involved but using intentionally (and unnecessarily) harsh language, and later, with direct intention to be hurtful. Being meaninglessly sharp and intentionally hurtful classifies as cruel in my book. YMM (and apparently does) V.
We’re crossposting here, but since this was directed toward me, I thought I should reply.
See, here’s the thing, that is intolerably insulting because there was no reason for Jersey Diamond to have brought up what she privately asked her husband, and I find it hard to believe that she did so innocently, without any notion that it would be taken badly.
Why can’t I believe it? Because to be unaware of how that would be taken when offered in the context of that thread would require a lot of stupidity. And there are a lot of conditions I could and would ascribe to Jersey Diamond, but stupidity is not one of them.
Even if JD isn’t aware that it could be specifically hurtful to a TG/TS person to have others speculating about their gender status (which I find questionable) she is an adult and must certainly know that most normal people find it hurtful to learn that people have been whispering and gossipping about them behind their backs – especially when that gossip is about a sensitive issue.
I think it’s a far stretch of the imagination to think that:
a.) JD didn’t know that TG/TS persons are sensitive about their gender status
b.) JD didn’t know that most people don’t like being secretly discussed
c.) JD didn’t know that telling someone that you’ve been gossipping about them is a bad idea
d.) JD didn’t know that saying so in that context was irrelevant and would do nothing to further her point or the debate at hand
and yet, all four must be true if it is to be believed that she made that comment with absolutely no negative intent.
I’m sorry, I just cannot – based upon JD’s past performances – suspend disbelief enough to buy that.
The problem, Stoid is that as ugly as the original remark was (YMMV), when Eve posted that the remark hurt her Jersey didn’t apologize and indeed went on to not only repeat the remark but to take it even further. I know that you don’t want to discuss the later stuff, but I don’t think it’s possible or desirable to examine the initial remark in a vacuum, because the later remarks clarify Jersey’s motives for the initial comment.
A simple “I hadn’t understood that my remark would hurt you. I’m very sorry” would have ended things. The fact that Jersey’s next < cough >substantive < cough > post (after prancing through three pages of the Pit thread basking in the notority like the Attention-whore-Troll she is), was
This tells me that she did mean the original remark to hurt Eve.
I agree that it’s hard to assign motive to the original comment (which, I’ll conceed could be just abysmal stupidity rather than downright meanness) in the thread if you try to make it stand on it’s own. But the later comments by Jersey give us insights and clarify exactly how she meant it. Which was clearly as an attack.
Fenris
Are there any online pics of Eve? Now I’m just getting curious.
Of course, if she ended up looking like Caroline “Tula” Cossey, I’d say she definitely got her money’s worth.
sigh Has NO ONE paid the slightest attention to the many links to Eve’s pictures?
Stoid, you’re way off base. And since you’ve been hurt yourself by innocent remarks in the past, I would think you wouldn’t try to tell Eve that she should “grow a thicker skin.”
Take a chill-pill, Daddy-O. I didn’t even know (or care) that Eve was a transexual before I read this thred (and the thread that inspired it).
Truth be told, I still don’t care that she is a transexual, but all this talk about how beautiful she is has got me mildly curious.
But I want more pit “call outs.” Perhaps I should work harder at rubbing people the wrong way? 
I went to bed last night without answering iampunha, and I’m not sure I can do any better today. But here goes:
Joe and Jersey appear to have the POV that one’s sex/gender is an unchangeable thing, that everyone falls into one of two neat categories that are supposed to have sex only with the opposite one, and only under certain conditions. They found this on their reading of Scripture.
That’s fine – they’re entitled to have that opinion. And both expressed it in one way or another.
Personally I wouldn’t care whether Eve is as beautiful as she is or looked like a football lineman in drag (which she does not) – if she chooses to live as a woman, much less go through the course of treatment to make her into one as far as is physiologically possible, it’s my God-given duty to honor her choice of identity and recognize her as such. (I posted a link to why I say that over in the original GD TG thread, if anyone is interested).
It’s my job, also given by God, to treat everyone with respect and compassion. That most emphatically includes Eve and KellyM and other transgendered people; it specifically includes the gay men and women who have been beaten about their persons with Bibles in an unholy parody of what Christianity is supposed to mean; and it also includes His4Ever, Joe Cool, and Jersey Diamond. In particular, with the three of them claiming allegiance to Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, I have a special responsibility to them to uphold them as brother and sisters in Christ – and to, starting in private, correct them when I feel they’re in the wrong on an issue. I have not resorted to doing that in this case, because I think that Joe meant his apology, even though he tempered it with an attempt at self-justification and an insistence on standing on what his beliefs are.
I sincerely hope that Eve will not absent herself from here on account of the attitudes that they have expressed, and I formally request a moderator who knows her personally – Uke? Manny? – to convey that personal request to her, along with a link to the thread that hundreds of us have said how much we are enhanced personally by her presence (which I need to post to).
IMHO, though I had to miss the opportunity to meet Eve in Charleston, from her pictures I think that Jersey was way off base in her initial comment. And I think that all three of them (Joe, Jersey, and His) need to learn to practice a lot more tact and compassion in what they post. But, and this is key to my stance here, they need to have some space to do just that from the rest of us. Yeah, Joe has said some hateful things about many of us in the past – His seems to rejoice in finding occasions to take innuendo-laden potshots at my faith stance, whether she realizes she’s doing it or not, even now. But it’s my job to disregard those things and try to call out the commitment they’ve made that should have them repenting of their hostility and trying to make amends to those they’ve hurt. And this very thread started with Joe making an apology, and people explaining to him why it wasn’t a very good apology at all. That’s not how you change people, folks.
As for you, Crafter Man, I suggest a short space of Bible reading. First John would be good, along with Jesus’s comments on how to treat other people. Luke 6:27-45, which I’ve quoted elsewhere on this board recently, would be a start, along with the parable of the Sheep and Goats, which you can find in Mangetout’s GD thread if you don’t feel like breaking out a Bible. Then tell me how a Christian is supposed to treat a transsexual.
And let us not forget that before JerseyDiamond made the remark Eve had already said that she didn’t want to hear it. There’s no way JD could not have known that she would offend Eve by saying what she did.
Besides, even if it DIDN’T hurt Eve as it did, it does violate the rule of “Don’t be a Jerk.”
Getting a “thicker skin” isn’t the answer. Eve already has a pretty tough hide. But that doesn’t mean it’s okay to sling insults at someone.
Besides, JD is representing herself as a Christian. She’s doing a terrible job, and then accusing US of being the wrong ones.
Um, sorry no.