The OP of that thread was, at best, incoherent. But some things in it seemed unambiguously clear, like referring to the rumors that Tupac was gay as “the product of a vicious smear campaign of haters to tarnish the dead man’s legacy”. We are currently in a watershed moment in history when same-sex orientation is slowly and, some might say, grudgingly, being normalized in civilized countries. But being gay is still a serious criminal offense in dozens of countries, and the Sultan of Brunei recently decreed that in his country, the punishment would be death by stoning. It seemed utterly bizarre to me, in this climate of changing mores, to characterize the idea that someone might be gay as “a vicious smear campaign of haters”.
Perhaps your other posts are totally reasonable. Frankly I just don’t recall enough of them to form an opinion one way or the other, but others seem to think so. My comments were directed to that one OP. And I actually still don’t see the point of it, all your attempted explanations notwithstanding. I agree with Colibri’s observation in ATMB that the thread was a train wreck and was closed for that reason.
I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say I’ve seen that old Tupac video and it did make me think he was gay or on the DL or something he does seem to have the whole gay affectation voice thing. It doesn’t make me think less of the guy, actually I’d be even more impressed if he was gay or at least bi and pulled off the whole gangsta rapper thing.
It’s not that bad, and not that big a deal. But I think it’s slightly homophobic (in the same way that highlighting certain mannerisms as “black” can be tapping a bit into societal racism, even when it’s unintentional with no evil intent), even though I see no reason to think you have any hatred or malicious intent against gay people… just kind of the background homophobia in our society, just like that there’s some background racism and misogyny that we’re often not aware of if we’re not affected by it.
But only very slightly. Not a huge deal at all, and that’s just my opinion. I’m no expert on bigotry against homosexuals.
And he wouldn’t have had the platform to reach all the millions of fans that he reached if he hadn’t stayed in the closet. He recognized the necessity of it due to the homophobia that exists in not just the rap community (very intense in the rap world) but the black community as a whole.
His activism was not about gay rights. Before specific issues like that could even see the light of day, more basic, structural needs had to be addressed. Needs such as lifting black communities out of poverty, tackling racism, police violence, etc. IMO, this is how Tupac was selfless and admirable in keeping his personal life out of the spotlight. Because he recognized that he would be shunned and his platform taken from him if he outed himself. He felt that he could achieve more good for the world that way than as an “outed” gay man.
What do you mean when you use the term “homophobic” here? Because the reason I see those mannerisms as indicative of homosexuality is because in my nearly 40 years on this planet, I’ve never met, talked to, heard of, or knew of even one man who possessed such mannerisms that was not gay. So when I see yet another example of such mannerisms, I am going to have a very hard time not believing the same thing is true once again.
I know anecdote =/ data but can anyone give an example of a man who is known in the public eye who exhibits such VERY stereotypically gay body language/mannerisms and is actually heterosexual?
I don’t know about public eye, but I’ve personally known several people with stereotypically gay mannerisms (by my interpretation) who were not gay (or not openly gay, anyway). I find these mannerisms to be rather common in the South, in fact.
But I’m not sure if that even really matters – IMO, associating from the outside (i.e. not from within the gay community) certain characteristics (aside from tautological characteristics like “desires sex exclusively or mostly exclusively with men”) with gay people (or black people, or Asian people, etc., for that matter), is at best neutral and at worst actively harmful, in the same way that so many other stereotypes can be harmful. Society does this very widely, of course, but I think it’s wise to try and resist going along with this kind of potentially harmful thing that society can do.
Isn’t this a generalization? Isn’t that something you shouldn’t be doing? I mean imagine this:
“In my nearly 46 years on this planet, I’ve never met, talked to, heard of, or knew of even one Asian woman that didn’t suck at driving. So when I see yet another Asian female, I am going to have a very hard time not believing the same thing is true once again.”
I was expressing an opinion. Are you saying that gay people can have such opinions as to whether a person is gay or not but a straight person can’t? (This is in response to iiAndyiii).
Of course you can have such opinions. But if those opinions are based on stereotypes and “things you’ve personally seen”, then maybe you should question that opinion.
Anyone can have any opinion, and of course others are free to remark upon it. I think your opinion demonstrated a possible very minor bit of unconsciously bigoted beliefs about gay people, very probably derived from the background level of societal bigotry against gay people. I may have such unconscious bigoted beliefs as well, and if you sense that I do, please let me know your thoughts.
If I were someone who had absolutely no experience with or knowledge or awareness of the existemce of Asian women who weren’t awful drivers, then it probably would be quite hard for me to think the Asian woman behind the wheel in the car approaching mine is any different. I think thats just human nature.
But your example differs in that it is 1) a subjective generalization (what constitutes an “awful driver”) and 2) an inherently negative generalization
“gay mannerisms” isn’t a subjective generalization? Besides, I watched that video, and I didn’t hear him say “I’m gay”, which is the only thing I would use to determine if somebody was gay or not (if it mattered to me).
Sure i COULD be wrong but all the information i have available upon which to form an opinion leads me to that particular POV. Questioning that opinion, especially with no new information, doesnt change my it. I am not in court, im not submitting proof, im stating an opinion.
You are conflating things. An accurate comparison would be to compare the subjective “Asian women are bad drivers” with the objective “This person is gay”. You can objectively answer the latter yes/no. The former opinion about Asian women is impossible to answer objectively because there is no objective definition of what “bad driver” means.
The experiences, words, images exposing me to mannerisms that I refer to as gay ARE subjective. That is what im referring to as “human nature”. Determining what constitutes “gay mannerisms” is subjective. But what i glean from that generalization is either factually correct or factually incorrect.
…right? And until I’m shown or taught that that particular stereotype isnt true, I will continue to have a very hard time thinking any differently. Simply saying “Dont do that, doing that is bad” isnt enough to overcome a lifetime of steretype-confirmation.