But you recognize that stereotypes are generally a poor way to evaluate people, right?
Yes there is. It means they drive 30 mph on major 16-lane freeways where the speed limit is 70 and the average speed around 85. They do this while, quite understandably, looking terrified. This is objective evidence from first-hand observation. 
Of course.
You know, I’ve had a few beers tonight, and maybe my judgement is cloudy. But I’m almost positive that we shouldn’t judge people based on stereotypes.
So then why are you knowingly using this stereotype in this fashion?
I’ve been trying to explain exactly that. Now you didnt really explain yourself in your other post. You said that associating from the outside certain characteristics with gay people is at best neutral and at worst actively harmful. I’m trying to understand this. So if I were gay (coming from the inside) and associated Tupac’s characteristics with being gay, there would be no bigotry, no homophobia? But arent they doing the exact same thing? Just from the opposite end of the spectrum.
As far as why im using this stereotype myself, its because its the only thing Ive ever seen any evidence for in any context at any time to any degree whatsoever. Until im shown how this is a stereotype and not a universal truth, it’s going to remain part of my life rubric, even knowing on an academic level that stereotypes are generally not helpful. Generally not helpful, but not universally so. I need to be taught that this stereotype is damaging, not somply told that it is. Simple assertion is not enough to overcome a lifetime of steretype validation.
But, any stereotype is damaging. You need specifics on that?
Yep. Specifically, how thinking a man is gay who has the trademark “gay lisp” speech, the body language and the whole package is in fact damaging. In order to begin to understand how that might be true, i have to be shown that its not a universal truth. Fight my ignorance
I’m not going to tell gay people how to talk about gay people, any more than I’m going to tell black people how to talk about black people. But in terms of sexuality, you’re coming at this from the same place I am, so I feel comfortable telling you that I think you’re wrong on this.
This stereotype is damaging because there’s still a significant amount of homophobia in our society, and people (especially kids) shouldn’t be taught that certain mundane characteristics and mannerisms that have nothing to do with sexuality are nonetheless connected to sexuality. Even if the mannerisms and characteristics aren’t intrinsically negative - though in a patriarchal and homophobic society like ours, things connected to homosexuality or femininity in men are likely to be seen as negative.
Or something like that.
But the gay people arent just talking about gay people, they are talking about straight people as well. And just because they are gay, they have some sort of innate ability to use stereotypes safely? Because they would also be relying on the same information i relied on to draw their conclusions.
And if anything, I think some of what makes up the stereotypical “gay man” identity is done in order to forge a separate identity from the mainstream hetero society. The lisp is one such feature.
So, all you need is one person who has the “gay lisp” is not actually gay and you will stop thinking everyone who has the “gay lisp” is gay?
Someone who has the entire collection of mannerisms that make up the stereotype: the lisp, the body language, the facial language, the speech patterns. All of them together is what ive never seen in a straight person. And YES! All it would take is one person, one person who has all these characteristics and is not actually gay for me to abandon my belief in them as representing a universal truth of sexual orientation.
Ok. I don’t actually know any gay people (that I know of), but maybe others can disabuse you of your notions.
You don’t know any gay people? Really? Wow. Life sure is a diverse motherfucker ain’t it?
I’m in agreement with Ambivalid on this one.
My best and oldest friend of 35 years is gay. I knew he was gay before he came out to me as being gay (about 30 years ago). I knew he was gay when he was sleeping with far more women than I was. Pretty sure he still has me beat – not that it’s a contest or proof of anything. I decided early on that he was almost certainly gay based on some subtle cues. Filed it away because it didn’t matter to me then, or now.
By judging him (correctly as it turned out) the way I did way back then, was I being homophobic, or just observant and intuitive?
Here is some information. Based on your post in the controversial thread it is new information for you.
Gay people may be born with the desire to form romantic attachments with their own sex rather than the opposite sex. Or I guess I could say, they are born to develop those attachments when it’s time for that kind of attachment.
They are not born to lisp.
They are not born to be ballet dancers.
They are not born to develop “gay mannerisms.”
They are not born to be theater people.
They are not born to develop facial mannerisms. Or that is to say, these particular facial mannerisms are not predetermined and hardwired.
They are not born to be artists.
A lot of gay people do not develop any gay mannerisms. A lot of them do.
A lot of the mannerisms people develop mimic the mannerisms of people they are around–macho people, theatrical people.
You say you’ve never seen a non-gay person with these mannerisms? How do you know?
Now I don’t know if it’s homophobic for someone who has these mannerisms, and who is not gay, to be insulted that some people think he is gay, but I think it happens.
May be sexist, but unless a man is a member of the Ballets Trockadero de Monte Carlo (I’m sure you’re familiar with this dance company) a man is never a ballerina. Within the dance world even female ballet dancers are not necessariy considered ballerinas, but that’s getting a little inside baseball.
I think you have to admit that your post had a certain “Wow this changes everything! This confirms all the rumors” aspect, but in fact the only thing it shows is a kid who at that moment of his life was into theater and dance.
Just because you guessed correctly that time, it doesn’t make you less prejudiced. I once had a job at a corporation and the guy who hired me had a very peculiar and (to my ears) effeminate way of speaking. Another new coworker looked, acted, and sounded like what I’d attribute to a normal, masculine, straight guy.
I found out later I had it backward. What I assumed to be feminine/homosexual mannerisms were just personal quirks of this completely heterosexual man who was just a tad eccentric (he also had some extreme OCD and other strange but harmless sides to his personality). The other guy was gay, he just didn’t fit any stereotypes. Not that I cared either way about any of them, but I’d labeled them silently the wrong way in my mind for months.
Again, didn’t matter to me, I didn’t treat either of them differently from my initial assumptions or after I learned the truth later. But my prejudices led me astray. If I’d been right, would I have been any less prejudiced? Not at all. You just can’t judge people fairly if you judge them superficially.
I know none of that shit is hard wired. I never said it was. It’s socially acquired. And of course I don’t KNOW if every person I’ve “seen” who is in possession of all the traits is gay. That would be a supernatural ability. I included “never seen” with “never known” and “never heard of” in order to show how utterly one sided my experiences had been. I only meant “known” in a literal sense, I suppose. But no, I admit, I have no superpowers.
Did the man you mistook for being gay exhibit other stereotypically gay mannerisms in conjunction with the speech? Or was his effeminate speaking style the only factor in leading you astray?
And I certainly know plenty of gay men do not fit the gay man stereotype. At all. I never talked about anything like that.
Some. Enough that I was surprised to find that he was straight. He wasn’t a gay cartoon character or anything but I don’t know if anyone genuinely is, certainly nobody I’ve ever met (gay or straight or otherwise). Thinking back…
-Exaggerated facial expressions
-Soft but emotive voice
-Very empathetic and nurturing by nature
-Comments on clothing and styles frequently
-Draws out some syllables in a way, it’s hard to describe but you’d think feminine
-Was single and didn’t talk about dating either present or past (okay this wasn’t a clue either way but certainly didn’t clarify things)
- Just little hand or head movements, subtle hints that you don’t notice but the subconscious picks up on over time
Basically many little clues that led me to the complete wrong conclusion. He eventually dated and it was a woman, and then when I got to know him better he would get his haircut at a place specifically because the women wore tight revealing clothing (and he didn’t brag about it, he was embarrassed to admit it and insisted they cut his hair well). Lots of other things that he actually did and thought which made it clear he wasn’t even slightly gay. He just came off that way based on surface-level signals.