Loud => actual disruption
Obscenities => contrived pearl-clutching
And I have in no way advocated paying a babysitter rather than bring a tot to a grocery store. What many find annoying is the parent’s reaction (or lack thereof) to an outburst. Teach normal children to behave in a non-disruptive manner and they usually will. It’s not the children that are the problem, but the supposedly responsible adult that brought them.
The biggest factor in NIHL is the intensity of the sound, the crack from one shot from a .357 magnum pistol, which can expose a shooter to 165 dB for 2msec, is equivalent to over 40 hours in a noisy workplace.
That’s from 2 MILLIseconds, and it will cause noticeable hearing damage
So, exposure to 100 dB from a tantruming child will take longer for damage to occur, but it will occur
Also, CLee never answered my question up thread…
We are both eating at a sit down restaurant, me with my superintelligent, superattractive supermodel girlfriend (hey, it’s my question, I can phrase it however I want) and you, at a different table, with one of your children who is demonstrating their healthy and prodigious lung power…
SMMG and I shoot you a discouraging glare and put on hearing protectors, then go back to our meal
What would be your response/reaction, would the type of hearing protection used change your response, one version with foam earplugs, one version with over-ear “earmuffs” style?
I won’t earn any kudos for raising a few snot nosed kids, but I expect some semblance of gratitude from you for providing you the platform to brag about being an exceptional child. You’re welcome.
Think about it. If a few seconds of exposure to screaming children in casual situations where you are at some distance is enough to cause permanent damage, then OSHA would be requiring daycare workers to wear heavy-duty ear protection. Parents would be sent home from the hospital with stern warnings about wearing earplugs and making sure other children in the home are protected. Having more than one baby would be considered a major hearing risk. Normal babies cry up to three hours a day. Hearing loss among parents would surely be a well-known phenomena.
The only people in danger of hearing loss are those who are holding the screaming child next to their ear, i.e. parents. And we’re okay with that risk. Once I even pushed a screaming, big-headed 8 pound infant right through my vagina, so the risk of a little hearing damage while the precious littles learn to modulate their voices is really no big deal.
As to Part II, I realize that I’ve been acting as a stand-in for parents who ignore a tantrum, so I’ll remind you that I would remove a screaming child from any public environment immediately. Hypothetically, if you and yours donned ear protection I’d wonder why you lacked the balls to ask management to intervene in the disturbance.
Bragging of my extreme shyness? Nope, not an accomplishment.
You specifically asked about my upbringing. I mentioned what made it irrelevant as an example for parenting normal children and that I’d never expect hours of silence from a pre-schooler to clarify that I am NOT saying I quietly amused myself and so any child ought to be capable of the same.
Do you really think mocking someone for being “exceptional” is appropriate? Or is it only wrong if the person is disabled or delayed and fair game if the person is outside the norm in a different way?
No, just for bragging about it. It happens a lot around here, though, so don’t feel too bad.
I wasn’t mocking you for being shy, I was mocking you for bragging about your precociousness.
How is it bragging? I stated why my parents’ unreasonable expectations were met and why to expect the same from most children would be very unlikely to work. I don’t consider precociousness to be an achievement or accomplishment either, any more than I would consider someone’s intellectual impairment to be cause for shame. Don’t project your feelings onto my words.
No. You are, as the one responsible for the children, expected to have that empathy, and to act in such a way that neither you nor the children are a problem to others.
Exactly the same as any other adult is expected to, which includes slow old people, noisy, selfish people talking in the way, or anything else.
It’s abundantly clear that you do not have that empathy, based on your repeated posts that nothing your kids do could possibly be annoying, despite many people telling you the opposite. Whilst I don’t think you’re a bad parent, and it looks like you are making a genuine and successful attempt to teach them to human, as you put it, your mistake is to think that your teaching opportunity is more important that someone else’s time or comfort when in public.
Show me where I have said they can’t be annoying. Of course they can, they make terrible decisions and are lousy at gauging the effect their actions have on others. But so do many adults, the difference being that my kids have the potential to become nice people. I’m curious about how you cope with slow old people. Do you glare at them, or do you chide their younger caretakers if they are accompanied? Or do you, as in have seen my whole life, display patience and kindness towards the elderly? What’s the difference? Why are kids regarded by some to be an intolerable nuisance while the elderly are respected and offered assistance?
My 3-year-old occasionally melts down when we take her to a restaurant, sometimes about the most trivial thing (I think the last one was when she got a green napkin instead of the orange one she wanted). At the first squeal/yell from her, I tell her she’s going outside if she can’t control herself. At the second yell, we go outside. People around us seem to be okay with that – two yells from a kid is hardly noticeable above ambient noise in a crowded restaurant. And CLee seems to follow similar rules as well.
This is totally distinct from another time we took her to a restaurant (a relatively upscale one, in fact, so relatively quieter). Next to us was a little boy, around 2, who was crying and yelling through the entire meal, while his parents ate their food without paying him any attention whatsoever. Now that is the kind of thing that I will be judgmental about. I would even understand if they had several kids that they were trying to juggle, but no, just the one. I told my husband after they left, “There is no way I’d let our kid get away with that.”
No, they don’t. Infants and young children have no developed cognitive ability at decision-making and their effects upon others. It’s left to the parents/guardians to discern when their little cherubs are being a annoyance to other people around them, and mitigate that annoyance. The same would/should apply to any caregiver with someone whose behavior might impact others.
In the case of an single adult (i.e., an elderly person, maybe a couple) I give them some slack, which was taught to me as respect. They paid their life’s dues. I do make an exception if their behavior is threatening to my safety. The extra time I might have to take with them has no detrimental effect upon my well-being, as opposed to a decibel-driven child and their clueless parent.
You seem to be missing a significant point. The intolerable nuisance of yours is causing a problem for others and you are failing to address said problem.
Being slow because of old age/frailty/physical infirmity is not an act of inconsideration.
So, answering the question you should have asked: the elderly are cut slack because it’s deserved. On the other hand, parents who don’t make an effort to get their children to behave in public settings (and won’t remove them promptly when the effort fails) are regarded as a nuisance because they are lazy and/or thoughtless gits who ruin outings for others.
Neither would we. We don’t tolerate tantrums at home, either. The time out corner has the magical ability to cut tantrums in half and teaches the kids to practice self-control.
I and mine believe that all human beings deserve respect regardless of age or infirmity. If you like a couple others here are claiming that the mere presence of kids in stores is inconvenient for you that’s too bad. The presence of impatient and intolerant types in stores really bum us out, but it would be ludicrous to ask you to hire someone more pleasant to run your errands.
Again, I believe firmly that all human beings deserve respect regardless of age, and I see no difference between having to wait for a stray toddler to move or wait for an elderly lady to move. If you can demonstrate that the presence of ten wobbly toddlers in a store hinders you more than ten elderly folk stalled by mobility problems I’d certainly give your complaint more consideration.
And you conveniently miss the point, again. The children are under your care and guidance. If they are causing a problem, as children will do, the responsibility for rectifying the problem belongs to you. If you fail to rectify the problem as their caregiver / decision-maker, the inconsideration is yours alone. The respect that may be lost will be that of what others think of you.
Firstly, no-one is claiming that the mere presence of kids is a serious problem. What is a serious problem is parents or guardians who allow their charges to be an annoyance to others without attempting to stop it.
Secondly, if you really did believe that all people deserved respect, you’d attempt to stop your kids from annoying them. It’s this disrespectful belief that the “learning opportunity” for your children is more important than other people getting their shopping done, or their meal eaten, in peace, that is the problem here.
Another problem is that your posts don’t really make it clear where you actually stand on this issue. I think you’re saying that you do, in fact, try to keep your children reasonably calm and quiet in public, but that if you fail other people don’t have a right to be annoyed by it. That’s better than a lot of people, but still not really up to the standards you seem to expect from others.
To go back to your earlier question about the elderly, old people who can’t help moving slowly, or who need assistance due to physical or mental degeneration, are no problem at all. Those who hold people up by talking to the cashier for ten minutes, or by spending ages counting out change or whatever, are a problem. If they, like parents should, make an effort to minimise their impact on others, that’s fine.
And that’s really what it comes down to. If you’re out in public, try to make sure your actions have as little negative impact on people as possible. For a lot of people, if they’re out shopping, or out for a meal, pretty much any impact a stranger has on them will be negative, or at best neutral. I know I certainly don’t go shopping in the hope of being charmed by children’s shrieks of joy.
No, you’re missing the point. The children are individuals and each has a learning curve. I can insist they behave and I can keep them safely by my side, but I cannot guarantee they will be quiet church mice because they are human. If you judge me because my kid picked up a ball she found in the tech aisle and tossed it down the aisle, you should remember that you haven’t witnessed her good behavior the other 99% of our day. Or don’t remember that and judge away and I’ll do my best not to judge you for thinking you know everything.
I would rather not put up with either. It’s a poor debate trick to throw up another clay pigeon in the hopes it looks easier to shoot down.
If you cannot control your children then it’s all on you. The customers at Walmart do not spend time at your house screaming so your comparison makes no sense. it’s the absolute height of arrogance to suggest they put up with your crap.
Irony much? Unless you live at Walmart, I’m not taking my unappreciated children to your home, I’m taking them where everyone from the mayor to the town crackhead shops for milk and bread. I don’t know what region you live in, but a stray or noisy child is usually the least offensive customer I encounter. If you are so precious you can’t shop among families or are suffering from a real fear that your hearing will be damaged by a crying child, I’m surprised you can venture out at all.