You can’t keep kids cooped up in the house 24 hours a day, just switching who gets to watch them while the others go out into the world. That means… they get to go out sometimes, to places where other human beings will be, like stores.
Believe me, parents rarely take kids shopping because it’s more fun that way.
I do! My 6-year-old is my shopping buddy. He helps me pick out produce and then I buy him a Lunchable for his troubles. It is a mutually agreeable partnership.
I freely admit that my experience is not universal.
Since having kids simple errands evolved into learning opportunities. Leaving them at home defeats that purpose.
Ideally, all kids would behave but there are no guarantees. Kids aren’t done yet. They don’t realize the repercussions of bad behavior and poor impulse control until they actually experience the consequences. I hope none of them will act out but when it happens I remove them from the situation or they lose privileges immediately. They aren’t automatons and can’t always tell me when they are hungry, headachy, constipated, frustrated, teething, or any number of issues that can set them off. Hell, I don’t even know why the occasional bad mood hits me, either, but I can take an aspirin for a headache, I know how to work the stove if I’m hungry, when to go poop, when to head for the bathroom so I don’t wet my pants, and exactly how much money I have in the budget for treats and extras. Kids grasp very little of these issues on top of many other things that might bug them or bum them out. It takes years to learn how to manage a trip to Walmart. For most people, approximately 18. For others, learning how to manage obstacles and respecting the needs of strangers is an ongoing process.
I think it’s a lot of this. No one notices if a group of adults breaks into loud laughter or goofing around, but if a kid gets the rips or giggles it’s regarded as an unruly dog.
Errands evolved into learning opportunities once I had kids. I don’t drag them to my doctor’s appointments or make them wait while I get a haircut, but the grocery store and the big box store are opportunities to stretch their legs and learn to interact with strangers. It’s a chance for the older child learn how to shop and budget, for the little ones how to manage temptation and get some exercise. Sometimes we hit CiCi’s for shitty pizza, sometimes we get a twisty cone. And we goof around and sing in the car, take the scenic route, stop at the park in nice weather. We do family things. I like them, they’re fun to be with.
Me neither. I especially hate it when my kids see unsupervised or feral kids tearing around a store, because I can’t really get away with saying corrective things or critical things in front of those kids or their parents. I also hate it when adults leave buggies in the middle of the parking lot, or a frozen chicken in the shoes, pile up the dressing rooms with wrinkled, make-up covered clothing, stop in the middle of the aisles to stare at their phones, treat the clerks like dirt and all that other uncivilized and rude behavior that makes running errands a real bummer. But I kind of expect nonsense and trouble when I go to stores, just like I expect ants at a picnic. It’s* Walmart*, not the Met. Shit’s gonna happen.
Children in public - argh! Still, it’s a necessary evil. Clee seems to have a fairly good grasp on the stuation except that she seems to think we should all appreciate her child’s squeals of delight and to hell with us if we don’t!
Naw I just want you to give it the same consideration you give boisterous laughter from adults. Maybe it is just me, but I’m happy when anyone else is laughing and having fun. When was the last time you were so thrilled at the sight of a wagging dog that you clapped and laughed out loud? Can’t remember? Me neither. I’d love to trade places with my kids, no one has more fun.
Just tucked them all in after watching the 13 month old try for 20 minutes to sit her fat little butt in a Barbie love seat. She can identify and read a few words, she fetches a clean diaper for me whenever hers gets damp, can operate every app on the Ipad including navigating YouTube until she lands on the Disney videos. She says pwease and fank you, but she’s also convinced that an 8 inch by 3 inch plastic love seat will hold her and believes that the dog and the birds in the feeder will say “hi!” back someday. I don’t expect her or any toddler to conduct herself like a charm school graduate yet I’m presently surprised to find that she nearly always does. So what if she gets a little loud and happy? She’ll outgrow it and be sullen and miserable like the rest of us all too soon 
My mother tried that when my sibs and I were quite young. That didn’t last very long; she did this because she felt we were too badly behaved to be taken out in public, because we moved and spoke, and she didn’t want the neighborhood kids to see us because they might want to play with us. Really.
From this non-parent: Kids are kids. It’s a full time job for them. Sometimes they’re annoying. I really don’t care for screaming and shrieking; I think it’s more the pitch than the volume. That’s not necessarily an age issue. I was on a plane that hit some turbulance and it jumped up and down a bit and 5 woman sitting ahead of me had to shriek. I think it’s a learned reaction, but considering the age they were, it’s a reflex now. Still annoying.
CLee, I understand you desire to teach them to human. I’m not sure if the younger one really needs as much human lessons while grocery shopping. If it’s possible, can you consider leaving her at home on these excursions? It seems to me the 4 year old needs most of the remedial experience. But I’m not walking in your shoes.
Then they aren’t old enough to behave and shouldn’t be there. That was my point.
Yes, of course I could, but if I do that she won’t be exposed to other people, strangers, and other kids. The pediatrician seems to think that the issues both the foster kids have aren’t actually organic at all, but rather a side effect of never leaving the house or interacting with others. The little will be in preschool in two years and I’d rather get her used to being around other people, some of whom are pushy, some hateful, and some overly familiar before she suddenly left alone for 8 hours each day with strange authority figures and strange kids. The older girl is in preschool and hides behind the teacher’s aid and hides under tables and refuses to interact with others. Teaching her to trust and not fear others is a huge job and I’m not sure my husband and I can do it alone. But some of those kindly strangers, the grandmothers and grandfathers especially, are gentle and patient with her and try to speak with her in public. It helps. Every little bit helps.
I haven’t figured out a shortcut to explain what I’m hoping to get across, but here it is again rephrased. Kids under 5 or so have no idea what empathy is, have no idea why they should behave and get along with others, why they should keep their hands to themselves, etc. They only know I will order them around constantly with no explanation (none that makes sense to a tiny brain) and they know I will be angry or give them a dirty look if they don’t do everything I say when I say it. It takes years and years of fussing, explaining, punishing, and reminding before anything like manners permanently sticks. When they act out, they don’t know they are being antisocial they just know that if they step out of line, you know, that line they can’t define or see, that I’ll be mad.
Imagine if I dumped you into the most foreign culture possible and expected you to understand the language, history, and motivations of the people around you. Imagine if every time you attempted to interact with someone you were given a dirty look or told “no”. Imagine if you were encouraged to do some things, but not others, and imagine what a nervous wreck you’d be after a couple hours immersed in a culture you have no frame of reference for. That’s a kid’s world. Most parents are trying to teach a kid without constantly haranguing it or telling it no. Most are trying to get a message across without a nonstop hateful dialogue of corrections. Most of us want our kids to excel and want them to be admired in public. We don’t want them running wild or embarrassing us and none of us like to be sassed. You aren’t seeing the total picture until you are in charge of a little. You may have spent 5 minutes in line with an unruly toddler and think you have the whole story, but you probably didn’t witness the previous 45 minutes of exemplary behavior in a storm of bright colors and irresistible temptations. I’m rambling, but it’s because the kids are playing in the floor at my feet and I’m trying to form coherent thoughts while policing them and making sure they don’t hurt themselves or tear something up.
For so many years they are just little hairless apes and expectations shouldn’t be too high for little hairless apes. It would help us all, the childfree as well, if you would extend a little tolerance and patience. They have to learn sometime and they can’t learn all these things from a television. They have to see and interact with real live people in order to learn empathy.
For people who are just grocery shopping, I don’t think it’s that bad. They’ll be out of there soon enough. For the employees who have to listen to that shit ALL DAY and can’t escape, it’s miserable. But, people do have to buy food and it’s not always realistic for everyone to always leave their kids with someone else. No one (reasonable) thinks parents can keep kids quiet ALL the time or leave them at home ALL the time. But MOST parents should manage to do one of those things MOST of the time at most public places, and they don’t.
A restaurant, even an IHOP-type restaurant, is different because people are there to enjoy themselves, not just to get something done. And a kid squealing the whole time can completely ruin others’ meals (especially at IHOP because the backs of the booths are really low and if the kid is in the seat behind you, they are RIGHT there, and I’ve still had inconsiderate asshole parents do nothing to try to quiet it down). That is so, so rude. I don’t give a fuck if it’s happy noises or not. I don’t care to hear anyone high pitch scream in my ear for any reason. And I love babies.
I hear you. But they can’t learn to behave around strangers unless I take them around strangers. Please wade through my previous post. Believe it or not, your presence, even if you hate kids and have no patience or tolerance at for little kids, helps teach them how to behave. It takes years to learn how to avoid trampling on the rights of others, and I’m doing my best to raise social creatures.
I don’t have any proof but I have a theory that antisocial adults are that way because they were not properly socialized as kids. I’m nearly positive asocial adults lack empathy because they lack experience with others, because they were raised by parents who neglected to work with them, who felt they should be seen and not heard. Because they weren’t introduced to others their age in reading and preschool type programs or playgroups. Because they didn’t have friends when they were kids. I’m nearly positive asocial kids come from asocial parents. And it’s entirely possible that one of these three kids will become a loner despite the effort I’m putting into it, and that’s okay, so long as she learns empathy and kindness towards others. The sooner they gain experience interacting with others outside the home, the sooner they’ll grasp how to get along in society.
I don’t know that any of that holds water, but I’m damn sure of this: any kid who is taught that all people of every age deserve respect and kindness will grow to become an adult who doesn’t get stressed out at the grocery store. Who doesn’t get angry at a crying kid or who doesn’t let a tantrum ruin a nice meal. Who accepts that unruly kids and deaf seniors and cranky loners have the same right to take up time and space in Walmart. With any luck, they won’t just stay out of others’ way and use good manners, they’ll also make themselves available to help those who need it, too.
Have you seriously ever heard a child squeal all the way through a meal? I haven’t. If I did, I would ask a manager to speak with the family. This morning my husband took us to IHop before church turned everyone loose and the place was full of kids. Our 13 month old squealed (once) and clapped when the waitress brought her crayons and again when a bowl of fruit was placed in front her. Everyone close by laughed and several people commented on how nice it was that she loves fruit instead of junk. She didn’t make a peep otherwise. We left not a single crumb on the floor and a 20% tip.
I sure have. Certainly nowhere near every time (I try to go to restaurants during down times anyway usually) but it’s not rare.
Maybe we’re talking about different things then (but if so, I don’t get why you would need to write an open letter to the public about it?). If a little kid squeals a couple times, of course that’s fine. There are a LOT of kids who just squeal and squeal. I work at a mall and half the time I leave work with a headache. It’s *extremely *common for it to be the same kid squealing or screaming for 15-30+ minutes while their parents play deaf (or maybe they are actually deaf by then, hearing that all the time).
This might be a bit of a tangent, so I apologize for the brief hijack.
While you didn’t specifically mention wheelchairs, I assume your daughter has been taught to apply these same lessons to people who use wheelchairs. If so, may I humbly suggest a bit of friendly advice? Please teach her that the simple sight of a person using a wheelchair in a grocery store, in and of itself, is not cause for someone to approach that person and ask them if they need help. Definitely do not assume that help is needed or wanted and just insert yourself into whatever the wheelchair user is doing and try to do it for them. If they are alone in a grocery store, they came prepared to do what they need to do without assistance. I’d say the only instance where help would be appreciated would be in instances where the person in the wheelchair is visibly struggling. Otherwise, MYOB.
I was briefly in a chair and she witnessed this first hand. She knows to get out of the way unless asked.
What about opening doors for them? I don’t just mean holding a door open behind you like you’d do for anyone, but like a few times I’ve been inside my building at the mailboxes near the front door and I saw a neighbor in a wheelchair at the door, so I went and opened it. I didn’t first notice if she was struggling or not but she seemed to appreciate it. It seems like it would be hard to open from a wheelchair because it’s heavy and there’s a buzzer so you only have a few seconds to open it.
Well first, ask. Don’t just run up and get in front of them and open the door. While I can’t speak for your neighbor, such efforts usually end up hindering the progress of the wheelchair user more than help, as the good Samaritan ends up in the way most of the time and has do awkward acrobatics in order to allow the disabled person by.
Second, and this is something that I’ve never even see discussed before; take each individual person that is in a wheelchair into consideration before you assume that they might appreciate some assistance. A frail, 80 year old man with numerous debilitating medical conditions who uses a chair is going to appreciate a lot more intervening assistance than a young, highly functioning paraplegic man. It’s not the wheelchair that does or does not need assistance; it’s the person using it. Take a second to assess the particular situation at hand before jumping to the conclusion that help is needed and would be appreciated.
ETA: I really didn’t mean to hijack. I will end this now. Sorry.
I would, except she’s on the other side of the door, so I’d have to open the door to ask, and that would make no sense.
Ahh, I gotcha. I see what you mean now. I’ve been in that situation plenty of times. It’s a bit different than having someone chase you down from behind to get to the door before you so that they can open it and hold it for you. :dubious: I consider the former situation (yours) to be fine. I mean, if I could have things MY way, yeah, I’d put a stop to that shit too. Cause that shit drives ME crazy too. But that’s just me. I understand the civility in such actions tho. 
That’s simply not true. A lawnmower puts out about 90 decibels. I would suggest that you get your hearing tested as well as the children’s. You can search out various internet frequency generators to get an idea of where you stand. I use to test out at 18,000 hz when I was in my 40’s. Now it’s down to 15,000. YMMV.