And immediately the power struggle begins...

[Airman_Doors_USAF]

*Originally posted by Futile Gesture *
**

I see. It’s ok for Airman to complain about his MIL for unreasonably insisting a tradition is followed. But it’s not ok for him to be questioned for following another mindless tradition at the same time. **

Question it all you want then. That decision is made. I’m sorry that you don’t approve, but then again, I didn’t ask for your approval. :rolleyes:

There are lots of “mindless traditions”. You show me that this one has resulted in disfigurement and/or disability and I’ll rethink it, even though I am living proof that it in fact does not disfigure or disable. If you can’t show me hard statistics then shut the hell up about it.

I would have been more than happy to have had it done at the hospital, rather than have a Bris. That’s the sole basis of my complaint, that my MIL is making demands that both slap me in the face and the wallet.

[gobear]

There are lots of “mindless traditions”. You show me that this one has resulted in disfigurement and/or disability and I’ll rethink it, even though I am living proof that it in fact does not disfigure or disable. If you can’t show me hard statistics then shut the hell up about it.

The image of a circumcised Airman Doors with “hard statistics” is making me swoon.

But, yeah, this thread is about the MIL throwing her weight around and trying to impose demands on MsRobyn and Airman Doors; it’s not about trimming the tallywhacker–they are the parents, and they will make the decisions for their son, which is the total freakin’ point of this thread!. Anyone who wants to debate the virtues of being cut vs. uncut should open their own thread instead of hijacking this one.

[MsRobyn]

*Originally posted by Futile Gesture *
**

I see. It’s ok for Airman to complain about his MIL for unreasonably insisting a tradition is followed. But it’s not ok for him to be questioned for following another mindless tradition at the same time.

Cos that what it is. Despite what he says there are no ‘sanitary standpoints’ involved, so the only reasons are his own family traditions and the religious ones he says mean nothing to him.

It makes no difference to me what he does to his son. But if you’re going to open a BBQ thread bitching about your mother-in-law’s position then you have to be prepared to have your own questioned, especially if you’re justifying it with a fallacy. **

This was never about circumcision per se. This is about the fact that Airman and I are of two different religious traditions, and we didn’t want to get into a tug-of-war with our families over how Aaron is going to be raised. Religion is not a major issue for us, but thanks to my mother, it’s become a bigger issue than we would have liked. Her insistence at following these traditions (see above for examples) has gone a long way towards straining the relationship between her and my in-laws, and between me and her. Personally, I would have been happy with having the pediatrician do it at the hospital, with a party later. Unfortunately, my mother would have none of that, and instead insisted on a formal ceremony.

I’d also like to point out that I am not some teenager who found herself knocked up. I’m 31, and I live at home because Airman’s military career made it impossible for me to join him sooner. I’m not the first military wife to live with her parents because of her husband’s job, and I doubt I’ll be the last. Yes, I know my parents pay the bills, but that doesn’t mean I have to dance to every tune they play.

Robin

[RTFirefly]

*Originally posted by Futile Gesture *
But if you’re going to open a BBQ thread bitching about your mother-in-law’s position then you have to be prepared to have your own questioned, especially if you’re justifying it with a fallacy.

No, I don’t think so. I think that’s extremely ill-mannered.

That his son’s circumcision was going to occur was background, context, for the subject matter of this thread. Just like his nonpracticing Catholicism, Robin’s nonpracticing Jewishness, their temporary living arrangements, and a bunch of other stuff.

So I suppose they’re fair game here for people who object to marriages outside either of their faiths, people who might be upset at their lack of devotion to said faiths to begin with, people who think religion is a bunch of fairy dust, and so forth and so on.

And people who want to debate the circumcision issue.

I think that’s absurd, quite frankly.

Futile Gesture, if this wasn’t already the Pit, I’d demand your appearance here.

Instead (so as to not hijack this thread further), I’m calling you to your very own Pit thread.

[Olentzero]

*Originally posted by Sofa King *
Above all, keep him away from Olentzero. That’s the really important part.

Pfah, they pass through DC on their way to PA, that kid is mine. I got the Red Diaper Kit and everything.

That having been said, I do sympathize with the both of you. It sounds like Robyn’s mom is just doing this 'cos she can. You might try the approach of stalling - saying you can’t afford the mohel right now, or something. (I’m aware of Jewish law/tradition stating the child must be circumcised by the eighth day, however.) But it seems to me if she expects you to pay for the ceremony, then you have every right to say “We just can’t afford it with the upcoming move and all. We know how strongly you feel about this, but we’d rather be able to have it performed when we can afford it than risk bouncing checks later on in order to conform to standard practice now.” Either that or do it at the hospital, as has been suggested. Depends on what you two want regarding circumcision.

It really just sounds like nothing more than a power struggle, especially with Airman Doors saying he’s already backed up as far as he can with his MIL. It’ll definitely get easier once you’re half the continent away, unless she suddenly develops a habit of surprise visits.

[Green_Bean]

*Originally posted by Olentzero *
(I’m aware of Jewish law/tradition stating the child must be circumcised by the eighth day, however.)

I don’t know if this is true. I believe that if there are “exetenuating circumstances,” the circumcision does not have to happen by the eighth day. If the kid is a preemie and in the NICU, you can wait. I don’t think that this situation is really comparable…but it could buy Airman and Robyn some time. My husband and I chose not to have te Sprout snipped, and we were assured by those who disagreed with our decision that we could change our minds any time.

[Spritle]

OK, lots of stuff on my mind, none of which is coherent.

1. 8th day is somewhat based on science (though by “accident”.) Not until a week of age do infants make their own slnv84jnafof (maybe vitamin K?) that they need to stop bleeding, fend off infections, etc. This is why they get a K-shot in the hosp. (IIRC)

2. While there is no hard and fast rule about when infants can/should be taken outside, there are some considerations. Infants have a more difficult time fending off/recovering from virus, colds, etc. Therefore, Mrs. Spritle were recommended not to take The Littlest Doper out in crowded, confined spaces for 3 months. Now, this is not a rule! Mitigating circumstances include cold/flue season (definately an issue for TLD), duration of excursion, number of people, size of area, and, (most important) decision of parents! We took TLD out long before the 3 months out of necessity.

3. Both of my boys have been brissed (?). I’m a non-practising non-denominational nothing and Mrs. S is a somewhat practising Jew (is Jewish, follows most holidays, goes to temple most every Saturday [drives there], doesn’t keep kosher, hasn’t read hebrew since her bat mitzva, etc.) Mrs. S wants them raised Jewish and I didn’t care. My/our goal was simply to raise them to be moral, compassionate individuals with a strong sense of self. I didn’t care if they got this from Judaism or Buddhism for that matter.

This is merely to say that my situation is a bit different from yours so what I say is useless to you.

However, my two sons and two nephews were all brissed by the same mohel. At my second son’s bris, one of the nephews (not brissed by Rabbi Malka) felt a bit out of place (he’s 4 yo.) A consideration in the decision to bris/not bris (regardless of circumcision decision) is Aaron’s sense of self. Might he feel out of place when with cousins, etc.? (if applicable) I know that all my nephews and my son (the younger is too young) love looking at pictures and people, and the bris pictures are something that they like looking at. (not to say that you should consider the bris because it’s a good photo op.)

Anyway, I’m rambling. I just wanted to give you some considerations.

to sum:

Bris when/if you want, after day 7 of life.
Taking a baby into potential germ situations is not as safe as not doing so.
Aaron’s sense of self may be affected in some way by your decision to bris/not bris.

Now for my unrequested opinion:

Assuming the decision is to have him circumcised (and it sounds like it is) get him circumcised by a mohel. They are trained to do this procedure and do many a week, every week, every year. Hospitals use residents/doctors who may do 2 each week. The methods used by the two are different.

Interview the mohel. Find out what instrument/procedure he uses. Find out what anesthetic he uses (if any.) My nephew was brissed Sunday and the mohel proudly stated that the only anesthesia used was good old sugar water – as had been done for thousands of years. I was sickened and wanted to yell, “They didn’t have lidocaine 2000 years ago!”

You can have Aaron circumcised by a mohel without it being a bris. (Rabbi Malka has done many snippings on the goyim.)

As far as the MIL thing goes, take a stand. Take a firm stand.

Mrs. S and I have one rule of parenting: Pick your battles; stick to your battles; fight them to the death. To back down is to allow MIL to stick her foot in the door.

Best of luck and welcome to Aaron. (and lots of nachas to the parents.)

[Olentzero]

*Originally posted by Spritle *
Not until a week of age do infants make their own slnv84jnafof

Their own what?!

[Guinastasia]

I have a question-what if hemophilia runs in the family-can it be excused on this account, or do you have to get a special facility to do it?

Just curious.

Anyhoo, as for circumcision arguments, I think this board has had enough of those to last a life time. Start another thread for THAT.

sigh

[Ceejaytee]

Just a couple of things:

(1) We had a bris for our little Aaron–although we aren’t particularly religious, we are planning to raise him as a Jew. Our pediatrician actually told us that, of all the circs he’s seen (and he’s seen plenty), the best ones were done by mohels–he said that doctor-performed circs caused more problems post-circ. They don’t cut enough foreskin, there are adhesion problems, etc. So, medically, you might be better off with a mohel and it might be worth the cost of shipping the guy in. As Spritle says, maybe you can have the circumcision without the ceremony.

(2) About bringing the kidling out in public–our pediatrician said to limit contact with the masses until the 2-month immunizations. However, of course, YMMV.

Knowing now what we know about mohel vs. doctor circumcisions, we would recommend the mohel every time.

[GingerOfTheNorth]

*Originally posted by Olentzero *
**

Their own what?! **

I’m gonna guess that’s something in Hebrew.

Olent, I wanted to mention earlier that I thought you were a perfectly nice Red Bastid and I wouldn’t mind letting my son near you.

[MsWhatsit]

Just to provide a counter to all the people who are saying, rightly, “We took our baby out in public at X number of days/weeks and he/she was perfectly fine!”:

We took Whatsit Jr. out in public starting at one week of age, and then he contracted RSV, which led to bacterial pneumonia, and he was hospitalized for three weeks and almost died.

Now, this might have happened whether or not we took him out into public. You can’t keep newborns in a sterile plastic bubble, obviously. However, things I would have done differently could I go back and do it again:

1. Would have demanded that anyone who wanted to touch him or hold him wash their hands first.

2. Would have avoided enclosed areas with lots of strange people (e.g., restaurants).

3. Would have had baby at end of cold/flu season rather than smack in the middle. (OK, just kidding, you can’t plan babies’ arrivals that accurately. But still.)

Just make people wash their hands, and avoid crowded areas for a month or two, is my advice.

[Rilchiam]

*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF *
**I am absolutely DYING to get Robin and Aaron out of here. But until then, I’ll pay the money ($200, by the way, which is a BIG chunk of change for me) just to get her off my back. I have just resigned myself to it, so I just consider it a bribe to get her to get off my back and I feel better. **

Airman, when I read the above, I clutched my head and howled. You’re not going to get MIL off your back by giving in to her. By having the bris, and especially by paying the $200, you’re going to prove that persistence will get her what she wants. Over the next 13 years, she’ll keep hacking away at you, getting you to capitulate in myriad other ways, and if she’s still around when the time comes, she will be able to orchestrate the mitzvah ceremony with no opposition from you guys.

But I know she won’t…because you and MsRobyn will present an impenetrable, united front! Right? Starting with putting away the charge card and telling her, “Your idea…you pay.”

Originally posted by MsRobyn
Just to clarify, my mother is NOT a practicing Jew. What she’s demanded is to keep her own sense of tradition intact. She and my father have quit every synagogue they’ve ever belonged to, don’t attend services of any kind, even High Holy Day services, don’t keep a kosher home, and are about as non-practicing as you can get without converting.

There you are. This is not about religion, this is about her getting her way. I don’t know your relationship with your mother, MsRobyn, but would it be helpful to say, “Y’know, mom, I’m still recovering from GIVING BIRTH…d’y’mind not giving me all this STRESS?” My mom can be quite a strega herself, but that approach works with her.

Oh, and :x :x :x :x :x (little germ-free kisses for baby Aaron! I hope he’s not getting stressed out by this!)

[TwistofFate]

Everytime I read:

The Littlest Doper

I hear:

*There’s a voice,
That keeps on calling me…
Down the road,
thats wear I’ll always be
*