Angel - 04/21/04

The thing is, he is pretty good. Period. It’s not a rewarding job to act out a part as a teen jerk, that no one is supposed to like. I fugured out last year, when we were all so damn annoyed with him, that the writers intended us to be eannoyed and Kartheiser acted the part perfectly.

And I agree with others, that while Fred was sweet, to me she was kind of annoying and it’s nice to see that Acker is so versatile. IIRC, Pepperlandgirl mentioned last week that Ilyria was supposed to be a nig part of the S.5 that never came to be. I Can totally see that.

I was confused by the memory box thing. I thought everyone would get their memories back, so I was wondering why Connor’s “parent’s” didn’t suddenly remember not having a son. The idea that there’s a proximity on it makes sense. But, honestly, did anyone mention that in the episode? Are we just filling in a hole the writers left? Was a scene cut for time?

Still, pretty good episode overall. A nice ending to Connor’s story and it was nice to see Vincent again. I too think he’s a fine young actor.

Vail did mention that it would only affect those near the box not long after showing it to Angel.

Oh good. I figured it was more likely that I missed something, but my wife didn’t remember this either.

I have a vague memory of Vale saying that there was a blast radius. Wes got his memories back, I’m thinking Illyria got access to Fred’s altered memories, and from Connor’s last line, I’d assumed he also got his memories back and chose to live the better life.

I thought it was a fabulous episode–the tendrils, Gunn’s heart, Spike as a pet … it was all great. But I’m a bit miffed that last week’s previews showed Darla and Dru, and even the preview shown during Smallville last night had the girls … and nothing!. That’s false advertising. :slight_smile:

I’ve seen many people say that, but I know of only one example, Tara. Well, Doyle was in the credits and he was killed quickly, but since he was in there from the beginning, I don’t think that counts.

Cordelia was killed 4 or 5 seasons after she first appeared in the credits, depending on if you count this season. Anya was in the cerdits for 2 seasons before she died.

Jonathan was in the credits exactly once, but that was years before his death.

All the other people who appeared in the credits are still alive (except Fred, a special case), or am I missing someone?

Yep, and it was clear that only Angel and Wes (and maybe Conner) were close enough.

Really good episode- things moved nicely and they are starting to wrap up the loose ends. I will miss this show when its gone.

I meant that minor characters who are part of the show for an extended length of time without being in the credits, THEN earn a sudden and unexplained mention in the credits, seem marked for death.

And, you’re right, I can’t think of anyone besides Tara suffering this fate. But when something like that happens even once, it’s easy to think that it’s the TV version of the ol’ “kiss of death.”

I was upset with Angel’s lack of explanation to Wesley. He just says ‘don’t do that’ and ‘trust me.’ It’s only after Wesley looks at Ilyria that Angel says ‘It won’t bring her back.’ Considering all the horrible things that have happened due to the fang gang’s lack of communication, I would have thought Angel would have responded to Wesley holding the window cube with “Connor is my son. He had a horrible life spent in a hell dimension. His life left him without love or hope or anything but pain. I made a deal with the Senior Partners to change his memories and everybody else’s. Smashing that won’t change the past, bring back Fred, or Lylah, or get Gunn out of hell. It will just take away my son’s happiness.”

After Angel says that, Wes still doubts him (possibly with Ilyria playing on his mistrust) and smashes the cube anyway.

RE Gunn

I liked that very, very much. ‘You’re evil. Anything you say, any deal you offer, will just be an attempt to corrupt me or hurt innocent people. I’ve screwed up badly enough already. Listening to you could only make things worse.’

I liked the resolution. I wasn’t sure if Connor would get a happy ending. While Sahjahn was throwing him around, I wondered if the prophecy would be fulfilled by a dying Connor accidentally killing him(something like Sahjahn repeatedly slamming Connor into a wall until he tears some wiring. Groping for anything he can use as a weapon, Connor touches a bare wire. The current kill him, but is conducted through his body and kills Sahjahn as well), or if Angel would have to smash the cube to save Connor’s life(In which case, the Senior Partner’s would still hold him to his deal). Instead, Connor get’s a happy ending. But, Wesley betrays Angel for the second time.

For a minute or two I thought that Vale was a poor excuse to bring in Connor. Upon further thought, Vale is absolutely right. The Judge was dismembered and his parts scattered across the globe. He came back. Faith was in a coma. She came back. Holtz disappeared a few centuries ago(when Sahjahn put him in stasis). He came back. Holtz and Connor were trapped in Qartoth. They came back. Lindsey left Wolram & Hart after getting his new hand. He came back. Then, Lindsey was trapped in a hell dimension. He came back. Vale has very good reasons to think Sahjahn will eventually escape. If Vale is immortal, or just has an extremely long lifespan (I got the impression he’s centuries old at the least), then he would see Sahjahn’s escape as just a matter of time. It makes perfect sense to deal with him now, while Vale has leverage and Connor, the one the prophecy says will kill Sahjahn, is young and strong.

Remember that Wes got both sets of memories; the artificial ones were still in place after the gizmo-brain-box went off. I think Connor’s last scene was him probing at Angel to see which set of memories was true, or perhaps to see if Angel remembered anything about the old reality. Because Angel was playing it very cool whenever anyone else was around, there was no solid evidence that the two of them were related, so Connor basically had to read Angel’s emotional reactions. Of course, Connor’s skill at fighting (and the convincing Qarthok backstory to how he got so strong) would lend credibility to the “true” memories… it seemed clear that Connor was the old (“real”) Connor from the moment he killed Sahjahn.

And speaking of Sahjahn, help me puzzle this out:

  1. Sahjahn brings back Holtz to kill Angel.
  2. Holtz decides not to kill Angel but rather to torture him emotionally and then kill him.
  3. Connor is born, and stolen away to Qarthok.
  4. Angel meets Lila in a bar; Sahjahn shows up to let Angel know that this is about “revenge,” but Angel doesn’t recognize Sahjahn. Lila loves the irony.
  5. Sahjahn makes himself corporeal, but is trapped in the urn by Justine.
  6. Connor re-emerges from Qarthok.
  7. Memory wiping spell and The Deal.
  8. Connor kills Sahjahn.

Sahjahn was never conscious and able to time-travel at any point in time that Angel had wronged him! So when did he go back and do (4)?

And finally, a shout-out to Gunn, who has proven that it is not a Hell dimension, so much as a Purgatory (“they can only punish you as much as you think you deserve to be punished”). Turning down the second deal has - in my mind - redeemed him.

This was a great wrapup to Conner’s story. I actually liked him in the episode. I wonder if he switches majors to something more appropriate to his new found abilities. Criminology? Demonology? Phys Ed?

When Wesley was holding the box I expected him to ask Angel why he changed the past and Angel replying. “Because you sent him to hell!”

I’m guessing that remembering th epast will spur Wesley to save Gunn.

Buffy, episode 1, season 1 (possibly the unaired pilot): one of the “Scoobies” introduced in the credits gets killed off in the first episode. I think he even gets turned and Buffy is forced to dust him. He’s a weird Xander-clone, who hits on Cordelia and gets bitten while trying to save the not-nearly-as-cute Willow character.

Nope, obviously no blast radius. Otherwise the old demon (sorry, forgot his name) couldn’t threaten Angel with it. If Angel had tried to kill him in the demon’s first scene, then he threatened to crush it, which would break Connor’s spell, even though Connor was far away at that point.

Wes the betrayer again.

He didn’t threaten Angel with breaking the cube. He just indicated that he could restore Conner’s memories before Angel could kill him.

That would be Jesse, who was not in the credits for the show that was aired. Must be the unaired pilot.

It just occured to me that Sahjahn would have killed Conner if Wes hadn’t released the memories. Conner didn’t remember how to fight and was getting his ass kicked, but the memories let him finish the job. Sure, he might have still won without the memories but it didn’t look like that.

So, Wes saved Conner, at a pretty high cost but nothing they won’t be able to get past (without massive amounts of guilt and hand wringing). It may be lost on the participants since they were having the standoff and not watching the fight, but clearly that’s what happened.

They better do something different with Ilyria, because I find the character pretty boring right now. AA looks great in the outfit. Conner thought so. Actually, that reminds me of the funniest line in the episode. Angel’s “I thought they’d fixed that” after Conner mentions that he has always had a thing for older women. Hysterical throwaway line.

That and Wes’ line “We have plenty of petri dishes”.

My sense is that Illyria is trying to recruit Wes as an acolyte to take Knox’s role. She seems to be fascinated by the fact that Wes follows Angel, and seems to be excessively pleased at any breakdown of that loyalty.

In the DVD commentarry to Buffy episode 1, Joss says he wanted to put Jesse in the credits but decided against it. The unaired pilot has no credits.

  1. SahJahn told Holtz it was about killing Angel. Sahjahn later reveals he never cared about Angel. But an ancient prophecy says that Connor will kill Sahjahn. Sahjahn actually brings Holtz through time to kill Connor.
  2. Which upsets Sahjahn. Holtz has a crossbow. Connor is a helpless newborn. Angelus vamped Holtz’s daughter. Sahjahn is shocked and ever so pissed when Holtz doesn’t kill Connor.
  3. I thought it was Qartoth. Either way, Sahjahn opens the portal to get Angel to give up his son. When Holtz takes Connor through the portal, Sahjahn seals it. He assumes this will trap Connor permanently-preventing him from killing Sahjahn
  4. I think you may have this out of sequence. With flashbacks and Sahjahn being a time traveller, it’s easy to get confused on the order of events.
  5. Angel is the one who makes Sahjahn corporeal. If Sahjahn had the power to do that, he would have done it long ago. He belongs to race of demons who were cursed with intangibility for their brutality, sadism, and mass murder.
  6. I think Connor’s return was somehow arranged by Jasmine so that she could be born into our dimension. I could be wrong though.
  7. I’m not sure to what extent reality was changed. But, I think it was largely cosmetic. If Connor’s life had unhappened, he never would have been to Qartoth and would be biologically a toddler. Only memories, and minor details like the scar Justine gave Wesley were changed. For whatever reason (perhaps that race of demons is immune to such spells, maybe it’s due to the time travel, or maybe the urn blocked the spell,) Sahjahn’s memories haven’t been changed. IIRC Sahjahn never met the adult Connor, which is why he didn’t recognize him at first.