Sat On Cookie, that may be true on some occasions, but there isn’t any reasonable manner in which one may accurately guess how long court will be in session on any given day, or how long an unusual meeting might be, and I’d never give a receptionist or assistant a hard time because they didn’t feel it appropriate to make wild guesses about such wildly variable things.
In my last job, I frequently worked from home. I had a list of specific people who could be given the direct phone number to my home office, and a list of specific ranks of people who could be given the number, otherwise, my assistant would simply forward calls to me and let me decide for myself whether the person needed that information. There were people who simply would not accept that she was not permitted to give them that number.
Caller: May I speak to TeaElle?
Pam the Assistant: She’s working from her home office today, if you hold for a moment, I’ll forward you to her there.
Caller: Okay. What is that direct number?
Pam: I’m sorry, you’ll need to ask TeaElle for that.
Caller: But what if we get cut off?
Pam: You can call me back and I’ll put you through again. Or you can give me your number and I can have TeaElle call you back.
Caller: You won’t just give me the number?
Pam: I’m not permitted to do that, sir.
Caller: Geez! Why not?
Pam: Because it’s a home office, sir, at her private residence, and I’m not permitted to give out that number without her direct permission.
Caller: sigh Fine, put me through then.
Now, the forwarding always worked unless I was already on the phone, in which case I actually had call waiting and caller ID and could almost always click over and at least touch base and get a number to give a call back. But the way some people badgered poor Pam was just outrageous.
Because they’re not lying, they’re just being unclear, which is what clairobcur said to begin with. What’s wrong with asking for clarification? Look, I understand you don’t know the exact time your boss will be back, but these clients aren’t necessarily asking you for the exact time your boss will be back. They understand that you don’t know They’re just trying to get some reasonable time frame.
There’s a difference between “I don’t know when he’ll be back, but I expect him in a couple minutes” and “I don’t know when he’ll be back – probably this afternoon, but possibly not until tomorrow” and “I don’t know when he’ll be back. Sometime next month when his business trip is over.” What’s wrong with the client asking you to differentiate among those scenarios?
Sounds like a perfectly polite apology for a mistake. It sure beats a clueless doofus who can’t seem to comprehend the concept that repeating the request will not cause you to suddenly remember that, oh, yeah, I’m “John”. :rolleyes:
Because all Important People know that “I don’t know” is receptionist-ese for
“I have the information right here but I won’t tell you until you shout how important you are and refer to me as either ‘Missy’ or ‘Honey’.”
I found myself asking questions like that once. I felt like a total jackass.
Me: So, Mr. X isn’t in right now? Do you know when he’ll be back?
Secretary: Unfortunately, no. But I will tell him you called and will ask him to call you back as soon as possible.
Me: Would it be okay if I tried back around 4?
Secretary: You can try back at 4, but I can’t guarantee you that he’ll be in. Can I get your number for him to call you back? If you have a cell number, I can give that to him, too.
Me: realizing what I’m doing and feeling sheepish I’m sorry for grilling you - I hate it when people do that to me. I’ll just let him call me back.
Secretary: sounding far more friendly now That’s okay. I get that all the time. Can I have your call-back number?
I felt so horrible. Having been a secretary and admin assistant, it used to drive me nuts when people would do that. :wally
I completely agree that sometimes it’s just impossible to even give a good estimate but what’s wrong with saying, “You know what? I have no idea. He could be back in 15 minutes or he could be back in 5 hours”? That always worked for me a lot better than “I don’t know.”
AND (I’m not saying anyone here does this) there are some admins out there who get some kind of passive-aggressive kick from being able to be as un-helpful as they can be, while still, technically, doing their job. Seen it with my own eyes and heard it with my own ears.
I don’t know where you’re getting that idea. I actually had no idea when he’d be back. This is literally what my boss said when he left: “I’m going to run some errands.” It has been my experience that when my boss says that, he might be back anytime between ½ hour and not until after I leave for the day.
Because that is the most honest thing I could have said.
There’s your problem; you want information that is not available. I could, like another poster suggested, make up some arbitrary time and shine the client on, like - “He will be back at 3:30". I have a hard time doing that, though, because it’s dishonest. I can’t tell the client exactly what he’s doing, and exactly how long it will take, because I don’t know.
O.K., I’m obviously giving people too much credit. See, I was thinking that when I said, “He’s out of the office running errands”, that people knew what running errands meant. I was trying to actually give the client all of the information I had, rather than just stroke his ego, and say, “There, there, client - the boss will be back at precisely 3:30". (And that’s always fun when they call back and sputter, “You PROMISED he would be back.”:rolleyes:
BINGO! - there’s someone who gets it. If you know anything about court procedure, you know that there’s absolutely no way in hell you can put an ending time on a court date. Plus, half the time he’s gonna stay there after the hearing to do some research, or decide to have lunch, or whatever.
Thanks for speaking for all of us, but one thing I can tell you is, the longer I’ve worked for this guy, the more I realize that it is not possible to estimate how long it will take him to do something. Seriously, when he leaves the office, he could be gone anywhere from 15 minutes to 8 hours - I’m not kidding. He’s just not that kind of guy, and I can’t make him be that kind of guy. So clients, if you don’t like that, DON’T FUCKING HIRE HIM.
No, that’s not what clairobscur said:
If I know he will return in ½ hour, and I say “I don’t know”, then I am lying. When I say “I don’t know”, it’s because I really don’t know. Do you think I enjoy having to say “I don’t know”? It ain’t fun - let me tell you. I would love it if I knew he would be back in ½ hour; I would be fucking ECSTATIC if I knew when he would be back.
That’s no problem. It’s just annoying when they keep asking the same question that’s already been answered.
There’s a difference between “I don’t know when he’ll be back, but I expect him in a couple minutes” and “I don’t know when he’ll be back – probably this afternoon, but possibly not until tomorrow” and “I don’t know when he’ll be back. Sometime next month when his business trip is over.” What’s wrong with the client asking you to differentiate among those scenarios?
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Didn’t we cover this? So you are also in the camp that thinks, “He’s out running errands” might mean he won’t be back for a month? I don’t know what to say to that.
That’s exactly what gripes me though. What ON EARTH do people think “I don’t know” means? I always thought it meant I don’t know. It’s not really my problem if you ascribe some sort of secret meaning to the phrase.
And I haven’t even talked about the downright abusive clients, who grill you over and over with things like,
“You mean you work for him and you DON’T EVEN KNOW [gasp] when he’ll be back?”
“HE DOESN’T HAVE A CELL PHONE!!! sputter, choke - HOW CAN THIS BE?”
“You mean there’s NO way to reach him? You can’t call him? You can’t page him? There’s no way to reach him? No way?”
Oh, and I definitely don’t “get a kick” out of saying I don’t know. I actually hate it, but I hate lying even more.
You know, if you’re answering the phone, at a business, for someone else, chances are that part of your job is to answer the phone at that business for someone else. In most cases, the fact that those annoying fucks call in the first place is directly related to your receving a paycheck. I’m just not getting why you’re incensed that they want to connect with your boss, even (gasp!) on the same day they are calling.
For the record (and because I’m getting that you may honestly not be aware of this), A LOT (as in A TON, as in MORE THAN YOU MIGHT THINK) of bosses are diligent about keeping their admins aware of their schedule during the day and quite a few people these days brag about 24/7 accessiblity via cell phones. The only reason I’m pointing this out is because it’s really not that bizarre that people 1) expect you to know when your boss may return, and 2) are surprised he doesn’t have a cell phone. Really.
If you don’t mind my saying, then, you really should be pitting your completely unprofessional boss. He is the one who is putting you into this situation, not the client. He gives you no information about his schedule when, as a lawyer (I assume), it is inevitable that a client or two might want to speak with him. You’re stuck holding the bag and his clients are stuck with a pretty sad “I don’t know” in response to a simple and reasonable question.
It’s not the client’s fault that they don’t know what “running errands” means, hell, YOU don’t really know, and you work with this character! I suspect some of the extra questioning is more disbelief about such a lack of info rather than thinking you a liar.
Just so you know where I’m coming from, I find most “Customers Suck” rants are really “Managers Suck” in disguise. Well run businesses don’t generally create tons of customer problems.
Again, I covered this. If the clients aren’t happy with my flakey boss, they shouldn’t work with him. It’s really quite simple. It’s like saying, “Ow, it hurts when I hit myself in the head like this…”
Which word is unclear, “running” or “errands”?
Well believe it, baby. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to take a message and have him call you back. I don’t follow him around all day with a GPS system plotting his exact longitude and latitude, so yes, you might have to actually wait for a return call. So suck it up. Sorry you don’t believe it, but I really don’t care. I offered a more than reasonable alternative.
Who’s disagreeing with you? I covered that AMPLY. If you don’t like the business, STOP GIVING THEM YOUR BUSINESS. Don’t just yell at the assistant, STOP GIVING THEM YOUR BUSINESS. We don’t have magic wands to turn our bosses into perfect human beings.
Oh and this - you seem to be implying that we’re not giving clients the opportunity to speak with him at all. I can’t stress this enough - YOU DON’T HAVE A GOD-GIVEN RIGHT TO GET TO TALK TO WHOEVER YOU WANT AT WHATEVER EXACT MOMENT YOU HAPPEN TO FEEL LIKE. There’s a whole world of people out there besides YOU. When I call someone and they aren’t there, I leave a message, and they call me back. I do NOT plan my life around them being there the very same afternoon that I call. People go out and do things. If you put all your eggs in one basket, and your whole world turns on one person just happening to be available when you call, then I pity you. You just might have to plan for the catastrophic, unthinkable contingency that your call may be returned the next day. (Oh, the horror!)
First of all, I’m not “incensed”; we’re just having a harmless bitch session.
Second, I’m not pitting them for wanting to talk to the boss, I’m pitting them for asking the same question after it has already been answered.
And the clients are perfectly free to hire those people. But don’t buy chuck steak and bitch because it’s not filet mignon, if you know what I mean.
Yeah, but you should be able to take “no” for an answer. It’s really not necessary for me to tell you 3 times that my boss doesn’t have a cell phone. One time should be sufficient, no? I can’t believe you’re defending this kind of behavior.
Oh, and you know what I would do in that situation? I would say, “Please tell [the boss] that I am dissatisfied with the lack of attention I am getting”, and I would bring it up the next time I spoke with him. What good does it do to yell at the receptionist? Do you really think that’s gonna get you anywhere?
Yeah sorry, when I was posting I stopped reading at your first response and neglected the further information that you did provide.
However, the subsequent question that the client asks is still a reasonable one. You’ve told him the boss is out running errands and you don’t know how long it would take, the client responds with the question “he will be in later today?”. He is just confirming that the boss is not out all day. Saying “I don’t know when he’ll be back” implies that you don’t know whether it’ll be 3 or 4 pm or whatever but there is still room for further clarification, ie later today or not at all today.
If you really wanted to be helpful then you would supply the client with the best information you have at the start.
“He is out running errands and I don’t know when he’ll be back, however I’ll take a message and he should get it by tomorrow.”
You know? IMHO, you’ve hit, sortof, upon what the problem IS here. And I believe that what you’re running up against is the phrase “I don’t know” itself.
Sorry, don’t shoot the messenger, but I think what’s happening is that that phrase isn’t translating to the annoying callers as busineese, and so it’s coming out sounding to them as not answering their question.
I’m sorry, and I DO agree with many of your points and feel your pain, having been there, but I think what’s happening is that "I dunno (NOT that you have poor enunciation!!) is just naturally heard by many business people as teenagespeak, and simply doesn’t compute.
I think, that that’s what some of the other posters were trying to get at…and that is, that if it were couched in more formal businesslike terms, you’d likely get less of this pain in the butt behaviour on the parts of these clients. The more formal language is what they’re used to day in and day out, hearing a simple “I don’t know” while technically correct just blows they’re little CEO circuits (and I have to admit, I’ve allowed MY management type worker circuits to be blown by a simple “I don’t know” as well, sorry, but I AM sweet not assholish about it).
For instance, “I’m sorry sir, he’s in court, he is due back at 3:30, but it’s very common that they could be held over, so you can try back at that time if you like, or I can give you to his voice mail or take a message, that would probably be more convenient for you”.
This will insert itself into the brain of these business-soeak only clones as "Information I asked for’ (even if you really said “I don’t Know” just in a fancy way), and will prevent the drawn out questions and conversations you outlined in your OP.
Sort of the opposite of dumbing down, you’re “businessing up”
I was presenting an invoice for work my business had performed at a local hotel today. I had been told by the maintenance supervisor (who had left on vacation) to present the invoice directly to the hotel accountant, Colleen, in order to expedite payment.
I entered the administration section of the hotel and spoke to the person behind the open area desk.
Me: Is Colleen in ?
Deskperson: Yes, but she’s on a conference call.
Me: Do you know how long she’ll be?
Deskperson: frown
Me: :smack: :rolleyes: Of course, how stupid of me. (thank God for blowero . I look around. No where to sit and wait.) How about if I wait in the lobby?
Deskperson: Okay
So I leave the adminstration area and wait in the hotel lobby for a half hour wondering whether I should have been more clear that I expected Deskperson to alert either Colleen or me that I wanted to see her when she got off the phone. Finally I explain to the lobby receptionist my problem. She immediately disappears into the administration area and returns with a portly gentleman.
Me: Colleen?
Gentleman: No, I’m Nathan So&So the hotel manager. Colleen is going to be on the phone for at least another hour.
Uh, don’t you think Deskperson could have given me some idea of this? Well, if it wasn’t for the fact that Nathan assured me that a cheque would be available to me tomorrow which is a lot quicker than I was previously assured, I’d be having a really bad day. I’m going to try to wipe the memory of Blowero’s complaint from my mind and return to my old ways of fearlessly questioning receptionists.
I really, really frickin’ wish people understood the phonetic alphabet. I have a last name that’s not easy to spell, and it has two letters whose names sound virtually, or perhaps exactly, the same over the phone. So I’ve tried a few times, but people acted dumbfounded. Hey, moron, I’m trying to help us both out here. “Sierra” and “foxtrot” are a lot easier to deal with. I mean, seriously, most people have watched enough military movies to pick up the alphabet, and there’s a secret method to it: all the words start with the letters they’re describing! But instead, I get confused silence at the other end and make due with just spelling my name out seven or eight times till they get it right.
Christ, I certainly hope so. No one should have to deal with that. I’d try a swift kick to the gonads if I were you.
I think the phrase is problematic, because I’ve certainly had it used in cases when a more helpful answer might be, “She should be back this afternoon” or “I wouldn’t count on catching him until tomorrow morning.” I think blowero’s situation is both difficult and uncommon; while apparently court appointments are arbitrary in length, most of the time, if a boss is gone, the office staff does have at least a vague estimate when they’ll be back - after all, the staff has to work for them.
It’s just unfortunate that “I don’t know” is often used when it, while technically is accurate, could be better replaced with “Most likely by 2:00 pm.” If I were blowero, I’d probably say something more like “FlakeyBoss is in court, and he may or may not be back today. I’d be glad to take a message.” It’s clearer to people because we know that “I don’t know” often conceals at least a little bit of information.
Are you saying, “My name is Sassanfras. That’s S, as in ‘Sierra’… F, as in ‘foxtrot’…”, or are you saying, “My name is Sierra, Alfa, Sierra, Sierra, Alfa, November, Foxtrot, Romeo, Alfa, Sierra.”? Because I can certainly understand the confusion with the latter (long name!), but I’ve never had any problems with the former. Did I spell “Sassanfras” right?
I have a Boy (“Did you say dee?”), a Mike and two Novembers in my name, so I’m used to this sort of thing.
Ah. Well I think I might see what the issue is. Let me state a hypothetical, and tell me if you agree or not:
Suppose I’m you (told you it was a hypothetical). My boss pokes his head around the corner and says “hey, I’m off for a cuppa joe. Back in a bit. Cover for me.” Out he walks, and a minute later the phone rings. Client asks, “can I speak to boss-man;” I answer, “he’s out of the office.” Client asks, “when will he be back?” I say, “I don’t know.”
Now, this is exactly the situation clairobscur described. And, to my mind, “I don’t know” is not a lie, because I truly don’t know. Experience tells me that boss-man is usually back in fifteen minutes, but occasionally he’s in a hurry and is back in five, sometimes he dawdles and takes thirty minutes, and a couple times he’s been accosted by a client and hasn’t gotten back for a full hour. So my answer of “I don’t know” is true, but not fully informative.
So, turning this around, if I were the client and received an “I don’t know,” then you bet I’d press for a more specific answer.
Looking at your OP, for example: I call you up and ask if you know when boss-man will be back in. You say, “I’m sorry, I don’t - he’s out running errands and I don’t know how long it will take.” OK, I can accept that you don’t know exactly how long it will take. But possibly boss-man:
a) told you he’s running out to Kinko’s and then right back.
b) has an important meeting scheduled for 3:00.
c) is actually “running errands” in another part of the state.
d) just disappeared and didn’t tell you jack shit.
And in three of those four cases, you could probably hazard a guess as to when he might be back. So I ask for more information. Now, it’s possible, or even probable, that you personally would have already given me a reasonable guess, if you had one. But, in my limited personal experience, that is far from universal, so I expect that I might need to go fishing for more information. And, from my perspective, “I don’t know how long it will take [because I really have no idea]” sounds exactly like “I don’t know how long it will take [because, even though I have a rough idea, I don’t want to commit to a specific time].”
If you really have absolutely no idea, that’s fine (although that would make me wonder a bit about your boss), but I’d just like to know if I can reasonably expect a call from your boss (or call him back myself) within a certain timeframe.
Sounds like a perfectly polite apology for a mistake. It sure beats a clueless doofus who can’t seem to comprehend the concept that repeating the request will not cause you to suddenly remember that, oh, yeah, I’m “John”. :rolleyes:
