Women are more balanced and considerate to others…
Daisy, there is a difference about doing something barbaric and bragging about doing something barbaric. (Your case) What were your feelings on seeing those ranger’s bodies dragged in Somalia ?
I agree that evidence will be demanded. So you guys better not:
Bomb Saddam - Claiming the DNA matches the gruesome remains won’t help
Shoot him up badly - His sons were hardly recognizable. Some arabs even said that soon the US would parade another fat corpse and claim it was Saddam. Denial ? Yep.
Get him alive - What will you charge him with ? There is no credible Iraqi government… the trial would be a PR boost for Saddam. The US would look silly trying to justify the unjustifiable… or fear that Saddam might one day get out again.
So, the ‘debate’ is, has the US (or US’ers…lol) forgotten about SH and ObL?? Whats to debate? Sounds more like an excuse to rant (not that one is needed by Alderbaran I suppose). Would you like to provide a helpful cite Ald, illustrating some kind of point…one that say makes clear that those evil US’ers have indeed forgotten all about SH and ObL? I can tell you with authority that all US’ers (this is really fun) have NOT forgotten about them though…as I’m a US’er and I haven’t forgotten. I’m unsure, but I don’t think I’m the ONLY one either, though if you want proof, you’ll first have to actually provide a cite of your own. If you do, I’ll dig around until I find one somewhere…I’m sure someone out there still remembers…
/hijack
On a different note, can someone explain to me why people from the ME (can I call them ME’ers or maybe Muslim’ers?) seem to be fixated on Bush? Also, is there some subtext I’m missing here about him being Bush Jr.? Does it mean something that he’s a Jr, or am I misunderstanding? I’ve seen a lot of references to the fact he’s a Jr., and heard it a lot on the BBC in interviews on TV with people from the ME. A few weeks ago on one of the sunday talk shows, the guy (who was from the ME) kept going on and on about “little Bush” and “Bush Jr.”, so I was wondering what it means (if anything…sort of like the hitting someone with a shoe definitely means something in that area). Alderbaran also seems to rant about it a lot as well (though he rants a lot, so might not mean anything from just him). Anyway, if anyone knows, I’d be obliged if you could spell it out for me.
/hijack
Normally I’d feel bad about doing a hijack, but in this case…there is no debate here, just a rant.
Since you are a history teacher, Aldebaran, I am surprised that you are not better informed about the devisiveness within the US. There is no “average American.” You should be able to tell that by reading the political posts from Americans here.
The nature of politics, at least in our country, is such that the opposing party in an election never lets the citizens forget the shortcomings of the incumbent President. (Yes, Democratic candidates are already speaking out against the war.)
Uh, excuse me, but I don’t think that the occupation is over yet. Nor have the people lost interest.
The White House tries to direct attention away from their failure to capture bin Laden and Saddam. It is a great embarrassment, I would think.
Pro-war Bush supporters have been faced with the reality that there was no imminent danger from WMD as Bush and Blair said there was. Polls are showing that more and more understand this now.
More Bush supporters understand now that Saddam Hussein was not the one who perpetrated the terrorist activities of 9/11. That they ever had that misconception is the brainchild of the warmongers who surround Bush and advise him – and of Bush himself.
According to the polls, more Americans realize now that the occupation of Iraq was poorly planned.
And with the revelation of the memo of the Secretary of the Department of Defense (Rumsfeld), we know that even the Pentagon admits that we don’t know if this war has created more terrorists than it has stopped.
One of the really good things about the US is that we are fairly evenly divided between two strong and opposing political parties. (There are other smaller parties also.) So the good news and the bad is always out there on page one as soon as it is discovered. We know it before anyone else. But, of course, we don’t have to depend of our own media if we choose not to. Those with access to computers can have information from all over the globe. I guess that means everyone at SDMB.
I’m surprised that you don’t know more about us than you do. You are obviously intelligent, but apparently misinformed or stubborn in your preconceptions.
Firstly, the OP, being a regular reader of this board, already knows that at least some Americans are concerned about these issues, since they are regularly discussed in this very forum.
I would argue that the “average US’er”, whatever that is, has by no means forgotten of the existence of Bin Laden or Hussein.
A tape purported to be from bin Laden was a subject of much discussion in the national press, just last week; also widely reported daily are attacks against US forces in Iraq, at least some of which are likely instigated by supporters of Saddam’s regime, Hussien himself has been less in the news, it’s true, but it seems a bit silly to expect the press to run daily stories with headlines on the lines of: “Saddam remains at large” when everyone knows that already; a bit like the old routine about Franco still being dead. As for the US military’s failure so far to capture either of these characters, if the current stasis continues, this undoubtedly will be an important issue of the upcoming presidential campaign (or “circus”, as the OP prefers).
As shown on this site, most of the major Democratic candidates have been highly critical of the war in Iraq, with Kucinich and Dean generally seen as the most antiwar of the group. While one can argue for or against the notion that some of the antiwar sentiment among the Dems may be partisan politics, it seems unlikely that they, as a group, are ‘afraid’ of raising this issue.
I left the US several months before the war started, so I’m not totally up-to-date on what Americans are thinking. This “70%” number I’ve seen going around is alarming, but I find it a bit hard to believe, the America I know isn’t THAT dumb. Does this figure jibe with what people have observed for themselves? And could you tell me concretely what the administration did to foster the notion that Iraq was behind 9/11? I’m not challenging you, I wouldn’t know if it’s true or not as I’m not taking in that much US-based news.
Its the so called Red vs Blue America. US. Reds being conservative, usually mid US and southern and generally not in the Coast… Blue being more liberal, urban, educated and usually living on one of the coastal cities.
The problem is that Red America is gaining more weight apparently… and the small center purplish (blue and red) america being swayed by war drums into the Bush camp.
Does anyone seriously believe that Osama bin Laden is still alive? That loser probably joined the choir celestial in December 2001 in the bombing raids around the Tora Bora mountains, along with a few hundred more of what remained of his pathetic ragtag and bobtail army.
The only reason the myth is still being maintained by his followers probably has more to do with controlling what’s left of his share of the bin Laden family fortune than anything else.
As for Saddam Hussein, in the unlikely event that he’s still alive in Syria, or some other refuge, he has achieved the ultimate in irrelevance which, in the Iraqi political context amounts to death.
Now, about that three foot tall, one-eyed Mullah Omar, there’s probably a little bit more work to be done in improving civilisation.
I think many Americans would be surprised to find out what the average muslim in the middle east thinks as well as how they think.
I would not be surprised if Syria or someother nefarious middle eastern country took the WMD’s off of Saddam to further discredit the coalition and the USA for that matter.
Prior to this war in Iraq, I never once saw any reports of sermons shouting for the death of Saddam and his henchman and the Baath party, but I saw many reports by state controlled mosques that daily shouted for the death of christians, jews, infidels etc.
Never Saddam though. He may be a dictator but he is our muslim dictator and some of them expressed that they would rather side with a bad muslim than an infidel country.
Why were so many Arab countries aghast when the US was victorious in Iraq? More humuliation? It wasnt about the Saddam being a bad guy or about the Iraqi’s but Arab, or Muslim pride.
During the Iraq war, Al jazeera showed not only dead Americans but dead Iraqi’s as well. From my understanding, showing dead and mutilated bodies on the TV is a common practice in the Arab world as they say “they want to show the ful picture of what goes on”
This is not standard fair on US TV’s because of the traumatic effects it could have on children that might see it.
The closest analogy would be, we like to protect our society from such ill effects, the same way Saudi Arabia likes to protect thiers by requiring, woman to be covered head to toe in a Hijab to protect the men from themselves.
Well you expected what ? Cheers and thanks ? Come on... you bought the Rummy Bull about happy muslims ? If Iraqis seem divided about being liberated, why would other muslims cheer US arrogance and militarism ? Or you think having a heavily armed US occupation force isn't more scary than having a heavily armed Iraqi army ?
Saddam gained "hero" status only because he kept vocally challenging the US... so the problem is the US image. Educated arabs didn't like Saddam naturally... or the US naturally. Also being a dictator in the ME is a "normal" thing.
A real UN coalition including Muslims might have changed this... but we will never know will we ?
I’m not a teacher Zoe. I didn’t get my diplomes with the aim to become a teacher.
I’m informed about the differences in the US.
When I say “the average” US’er, I mean those who aren’t really that interested in what goes on outside their own direct sphere of influence.
And that are many many people inside the US, who only watch their local TV stations and maybe more recently also CNN, Fox news and the likes.
I wasn’t specifically aiming at the members of this website although there are some I could have in mind.
I know that. And also a majority of the population don’t even bother to enlist for voting. And from those who do a large number doesn’t even bother to actually vote.
In my opinion this lack of interest in politics is one of the major problmes in the US and in clear contradiction with the outspoken patriotism the US is known for. Not to speak about the widely spread mentality that “the president is right and we must support him”.
I have to disagree. I think many people have lost a great deal of their interest. Already during the invasion people got tired of the ongoing reports about it and wanted “something else” on TV.
It would be better if it would have been a great embarrasment to the US’ers in general before this invasion started. That would have meant that they actually tried to inform themselves through other channels then what they were served by their government.
At the time I posted on an other US based message board and predicted all what we see happen now in Iraq.
I think you can imagine easily how the reactions on my posts were. It is for people like me beyond belief that an outstanding, long career diplomate like Hans Blix is called " a liar" and “a dog of Hussein”.
It is in my opinion about time. Thousands of people have already died.
So you say now yourself that the “average” American is most ready to swallow without further thinking what is fed to him.
The difference is that outside the US this was already commented on and pointed out on forehand.
I have my doubts about the way this memo saw the outside daylight. (And I have my doubts about the sanity of Mr. Rumsfeld, but that is an other issue).
In my view the two party system and their financing system is one of the flaws of the US political system. The few little ones are in no position to compete.
This also has a great influence on how those two present themselves - and the other - to the public. There is no influential opposition, coming form other parties, possible to this manipulation.
You dependency on your own media is extremely great, seen the fact that the vast majotiry only knows English.
In addition to that : The other English languaged media aren’t representing what the vast majority of the outside world (and read here in my case: Europe and the MENA region) thinks.
Translations of other languaged media are sometimes availabe, but most of the time they are not.
The study of the history of the USA was not part of my university curriculum; it was part of my earlier education though.
I have business in the USA and I have friends in the USA. Thus I frequently visited the USA; a bit less the last year due to other responsibilities.
So your perception of me is a bit wrong.
Salaam. A
I think it is a common practice of everyone who wants to give people a look at the truth to show the “full picture” of what goes on, and that means: what goes on on both sides in a conflict.
But the US children can not be harmed by witnessing on TV or in other media how a US Hero Soldier humilates Iraqi POW’s, and the dead bodies of Iraqi soldiers and how mutilated the bodies of the sons of Hussein were?
Yes, I do understand that this is “only the enemy” (question: which enemy??) and thus no harm done.
But the pictures of little children teared to pieces by the same US Hero Soldier’s amunition… That is of course damaging the child’s mind.
Well, on an other US message board, visited by adults only, the moderators asked me in a mail explicitely not to post what they named “graphic images” of this butchering, because it would “disturb the other posters” to look at them.
Read: It would have the effect of a very icecold shower if they would be confronted with the reality of this invasion.
Mmmm… I must think hard to see your analogy.
Maybe your analogy is the following
In fact women are the strongest gender and pictures of murdered people are a stronger message of the truth of war then the Hollywood-like reports of lightening skies above a city under Glorious US Attack.
Rest assured that the average American is keenly aware of the hunt for Osama and Saddam, and any hints in the hunt are reported in the international sections of newspapers. I promise I am telling the truth. Please be courteous enough to believe us on the board who are living here.
I can assure you that I’m always my shining self.
Which causes now and then some frownd eyebrow at the top level of my family. They know it as always kind of a risk to let me unguarded confront the world.
As for getting the label “raving Muslim”.
Be honest: there isn’t much more needed these days then to be a Muslim, no?
Funny that I seldom see people called "raving Hindu or “raving Catholic” or “raving Atheist” or whatever that can “rave” over US based message boards in some opposite position then the average posters.
