istara, a whole seperate debate could be had on the subject of whether one should “understand” and thus rehabilitae a criminal, or whether one should punish and deter … in general. In this specific case, I would somewhat agree with you. Homicidal suicide bombings are the result of many factors, a sense of hopelessness and of desperation included. Even middle-class American teens with probable futures of plenty can feel so hopeless and insignificant that suicide with its promise of “they’ll be talking about me” tempts many … add that short term narcissism into a desperate situation, and a structure that encourages such acts, provides the means to accomplish them, promises them that their families will be taken care of because of their act, and yes, it is easy to see how they could be so manipulated. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: Palestinian youth deserve a future where they can have ambition to become something else than homicidal suicidal bombers, just like Israeli youth deserve to be able to go to school without fear of being murdered on the way. Israel must do what it can to defend itself from these attacks (destroying the infrastructures that support it; stopping attacks before they occur; and my own preferred approach … one gaining popularity in Israel today … the big big wall) but long term, attacks will be most diminished by the creation of a Palestinian entity that has economic promise and in which energies can be channelled to more productive activities.
efrem remains as one of the more entertaining parts of this board. It is, in a sad way, fun to see how (s)he (never presume anything about a poster) attempts to twist the facts to fit the view that Israel doesn’t have a right to exist and that violence against its racist peoples is understandble.
On the list:
It must not be true that the Arab powers annexed the land that was to be Palestine because Israel controls it now, and that is what counts.
No mind that from 1948 to 1967 the land that the Palestinians say is all that they want was controlled by Jordan. No attempt to build a Palestine was made. The Arabs of the West Bank and Gaza were instead left in despeartely poor camps on the borders. Israel didn’t win that land in a war with the Palestinians … it had been taken from them before that war.
Jewish refugees from Arab lands don’t matter because Israel was ready to absorb them. There were more Arab refugees because in 1953 there were over 800,000 Palestinians, compared to the 700,000 Jewish Arab refugees.
The ususal quoted number for Arab refugees from Israel in 1948 is 600,000. The 800,000 number 5 years later is consistent with that, given the birth rate documented in efrem’s UN link. A nitpick, the truth is all these numbers are estimates (different sources will give different figures) and essentially the numbers were about equal. Let’s face it, there was a war. Would you want to be a Hindu in an Muslim town in the midst of a Moslem-Hindu conflict? If I had been an Arab in Israel, it would have been hard to convince me it was safe to stay, and the converse as well. The Jewish Arabs had been in their homes for generations, maybe even thousands of years, and abandoned them out of fear. Muslim Arabs live in their homes today. The fact that Israel did the right thing and took care of Jewish Arab refugees, instead of letting them fester in poverty, doesn’t change that fact. So maybe both groups should compensate each other for abandoned property. Or call it a wash.
Israel will find peaceful discussion favorable after it discovers that they cannot dominate militarily.
Even the most generous appraisal by Robert Malley concurrs that the Barak adminstration was trying hard to have a peaceful negotiated solution, had offered more that anyone thought it was possible for them to offer, and that Arafat refused to engage in any give and take discussions. (Maley has a sympathetic explanation for Aafat’s behavior and does share the blame onto Barak for fumbling the preamble to CD2)
Many Jewish Israelis want to grow at the expense of Palestine.
Some, sure. Many? Nah. A minority, but parlimentary politics being what they are, a minority that often holds the balance of a coalition government in their votes. The majority of Israelis have no interest in a “Greater Israel”, resent the settlers, and would happily give the vast majority of the occupied territories to a Palestinian entity that was devoted to peaceful coexistence. That’s why Sharon’s political stock went up when he was willing to say screw you to Shas. That’s why “the wall” idea (leaving most of the settlements on the outside of it, to be negotiated over after Israel proper is secure) is so popular among the mainstream of Israel today.
Define immolate.
My dictionary states that it means “to kill as a sacrificial victim, as by fire” (Random House). Interestingly, the next entry is “immoral”. Coincidence? I think not!
Then again, some people like Circus Peanuts. Now pork rinds are really disgusting.
