I disagree with the premise but let’s say Trump and Biden are equally bad for Palestinians in Gaza. Which President would deport Palestinians in the U.S. for protesting? One of the two would certainly be better for Palestinians living here.
Are there any "good" options for pro-Palestine voters (as opposed to "choose between bad vs. worse")
Then you are no friend to the Palestinains. You have a chance to take an action that might help prevent the US from being actively involved in their extermination, and are instead smuggly sitting on your hands in hopes that someone will notice. It is quite possible that Biden is the Neville Chamberlain of our generation. But given the choice between Mr. Chamberlain as PM and Oswald Mosley you can’t simply sit out.
Trump might have a crush on Putin but he loves those that show him adoration more. He loves the support of evangelicals and they support Israel (mostly for death cult reasons). Trump will be 100% behind Israel.
There was a particularly dumb Facebook meme I saw which went “When you tell me it’s Trump or Biden, you are threatening me with fascism unless I vote for Biden.”
If I see you about to swim in a pond full of alligators and say “Hey, don’t swim there!” I’m not threatening you with an Alligator. I’m trying to save you.
People don’t realize that voting, especially in the US, is about harm reduction. You’re never getting your dream candidate.
MAGAts have hideous and evil ideologies, but at least they have the rationality to realize hoŵ to make something close to that ideology happen. Progressives are less evil than MAGAts, but stupider.
I am certainly aware that the system is rigged to support a two party system, so it will be either Biden or Trump in the end, but that doesn’t mean I should be forced to choose between them. The mentality that Democrats are owed votes by us and we should bend the knee because they are the lesser of two evils is something I don’t agree with and does nothing but stifle actual progress within the party, since we have to shut up and take whatever table scraps they give us.
As far as policies, Biden is ride or die when it comes to Israel, which makes him predicable but also means we know he won’t do anything substantial in any significant direction. Trump is much more unpredictable on Israel and well, pretty much everything else. He can easily choose to drop Netanyahu like a bad habit if he feels he has been slighted or insulted. Even now his statements on the conflict have been all over the place. So at this point I really can’t say who would be worse.
When it comes to Stalin vs. Satan, again I choose neither.
There is also a possibility that Biden becomes tougher with Israel after reelection when he no longer has to worry about being elected again. I not saying that is a definite, but since people are wish casting here, I’ll throw that in too.
Also, a wise Pro-Palestinian voter should not just focus on President. Find Pro-Palestinian candidates in other races and vote for or support them in other ways. Or if you are determined to make a protest vote, do so, and then drive other people to the polls.
It’s not a matter of being owed votes. It’s a matter of cutting of your nose to spite your face. Helping to ensure a Trump victory will certainly show those dastardly Democrats. But at what cost?
I’m not a Democrat by the way. My views don’t align completely with any party. That doesn’t mean I can’t seen the disaster up ahead.
Oh my God, nobody is telling you to bend the knee, nobody is saying anyone is “owed” votes. It’s not a transaction, it’s not a loyalty oath, it’s not a love letter. If you don’t choose between Stalin and Satan, other people will; the only thing you do by not choosing is to give that choice to other people. And, like, have you met other people?
Valid conclusion, completely bananas premise.
Agreed.
Boudicca90’s posts mostly make a subtle change to the thread premise. They mentioned Palestinians once, but the main concern is that the U.S. adopt an anti-Israel policy.
Biden supports humanitarian aid to Palestine. Trump will try to stop it. Biden’s immigration policies are better for Palestinians. Trump’s are worse.
But when it comes to Israel, the differences are less pronounced. Biden did not move the official embassy location back to Tel-Aviv. Both Biden and Trump will allow Israel to purchase pretty much the same U.S. manufactured arms. Both will try to build ties between Israel and regional nation states. And when it comes to financial aid to Israel in purchasing American arms, Israel would probably accept a hit on its economy rather than to reduce arms purchases. So speculation about who would give Israel more arms purchasing assistance does not much concern Palestinians.
If the idea is to vote for a candidate who is better for Palestinians, definitely vote for Biden. But if the idea is to make a statement against Israel, it is harder to choose.
Biden didn’t vote to give money to Israel. He could have vetoed it but then he would have vetoed desperately needed aid to Ukraine. Politics will never be perfect.
Some more things that I’ll note:
- Palestine is a country of 5 million. Ukraine was a country of 43 million (now less). If every life is precious then the balance lies with defending Ukraine given the much larger scale of the war.
- Add in Taiwan, the region inside the 9 Dash Line, the Uighurs, the Syrians, and every contested or threatened piece of land across the planet, and you’re looking at a lot more risk to life than what’s happening to Palestine. That doesn’t mean that they don’t matter, but it is important to not forget the forest because of that one good looking tree. Ultimately, we want to save everyone who should be saved, not just this specific batch.
- It’s not arbitrary that the old crew in the Executive Branch have favored Israel. Let me leave bullet points…
For quite some time, Israel has been threatened with war and genocide by radical Islamic elements. We’re lead to believe that the center of this traces back to Iran. (I can’t, personally, vouch for that but I have no particular reason to doubt it, either.) Likewise, the US has been threatened due to support for Israel and because we purchase oil from other primarily-Islamic countries who Iran opposes. This threat has largely shown itself in the form of terroristic acts, globally. Note that the definition of a terrorist act is one against civilians, with the express intention of creating fear.
Israel has spent several decades providing us intelligence from the region that (we have to assume) has helped us to prevent terrorist attacks in the US, Europe, and probably other regions. In exchange for that, we have guaranteed support in case of any attack by Iran.
Ostensibly, this is that attack. If Jane knows that Bob will overreact if anyone disses his wife, and Jane uses that as part of some plot to land him in jail - paying Matthew to diss his wife - then while it’s true that Bob over-reacted and punched Matthew, it’s still part of a sinister plot from Jane to put him in a bad position. It’s directly a part of Jane’s fault that Matthew was hurt.
Making Bob understand that he needs to stop overreacting is, to be sure, part of the answer. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t nor shouldn’t do anything to help Bob against Jane. We might also question what it is about Matthew that brought him into Jane’s sphere. If he’s taking money to insult people, that is also a bit less than noble.
Like I said earlier, there doesn’t have to be a good guy, worthy of wholehearted support. The best we can do is to strive to be that person, ourselves. And being that person probably doesn’t mean going in there and laying into Bob because of what he did to Matthew. It’s just not that simple of a situation.
The choice is between the two of them, and you can be part of the decision or not. You’re not voting to help them, you’re voting to help causes you believe in, or to help the country you believe in. Choose one of the two who you think will be more beneficial or will do less damage to your causes, country, whatever is important to you.
For example, I think that abortion rights are important, so for that reason, among other reasons, I voted for Hilary Clinton. She lost and now abortion is illegal in many states.
If I want any support at all for Palestinians out of these two candidates, the only ones available, I would vote for Biden. If I want to support Israel, no matter what they do, and have a president who would refer to Gaza as a shithole filled with terrorists, I would vote for Trump. Not voting would provide just that much more support for the candidate you hate most.
Yes, I’ve had many Democrats tell me and people like me over the years that I have to vote for the candidate they present to me because there is no other choice. And if I don’t, I am insulted and treated like the enemy. I’ve dealt with this crap since the 2000 election and I’m done.
We were blamed for Bush, then we were blamed for Trump, and even when we did come out for Biden in 2020, we were still blamed for not supporting him enough. Finally in 2022, Dems again started to talk crap about us during the midterms for the same reason, and I finally had enough and switched my voter registration to Peace and Freedom Party.
Well, if you voted for Nader, you and other Nader voters were at fault for Bush. Register however you want, and vote in the primaries however you want. In the general, you should vote for the candidate who will more closely prioritize what you want, because it will be one of two candidates who wins.
On election day, there isn’t any other reasonable choice. If you want another choice (and dear god so do I), that’s the work of every other day of the year. But on election day, that’s the fruit of the labor of the rest of the year; and if we haven’t managed by then to make the choices better, that’s how it goes. Fantasizing about a better choice on that day won’t make one appear; and complaining about it won’t stop other people from making the worse of the two choices.
And you don’t like being treated like the enemy? Cool cool cool. Don’t take the actions of an enemy. It’s in your control.
I expect to be treated like a political enemy by folks whose interests I’m working against. Making the case that folks shouldn’t, on election day, vote for the least bad candidate counts as working against my interests. “Enemy” is charged language, but “opponent” or “adversary” would be perfectly accurate. I’m the political opponent of anyone who doesn’t want me trying to persuade people to vote for the least bad candidate, and I expect to be treated as such.
I couldn’t vote for Nader, since I was only 15 at the time. I did support him during the election, but there wasn’t much I could actually do. The backlash against us at the time initially scared me into voting “blue no matter who” for quite a while, until Obama proved to be a huge disappointment and I realized that the Democrats weren’t going to really support the issues I care about, or at least say they will and do hardly anything even when they do have the power to.
That’s why I made the decision that I will only support candidates that prioritize what I support, such as the progressive candidates on the ballot, regardless of their actual chance of winning.
To the extent that your support consists of praising them, absolutely. But if you decline to vote against the worse person, you’re giving those worse people the support they need to win. To paraphrase, you’re giving evil the only support necessary from you in order for it to triumph.
Yep, the SeeBees (i guess, the US Military anyway) are building a pier so that the humanitarian aid (some of which comes from America) can arrive safely. The Aid bill for Ukraine (and Israel and Taiwan) also includes 1B in US Humanitarian aid. So, thats a pier being built by US Military and a billion -at least)-in US Aid.
Really? A Billion USD? The Pier so that the aid can actually get to the people who need it? That is a Good Thing, and it wouldnt happen under trump.
I concur.
What- exactly? I believe Biden is doing all he can within the limits of his Office.
The mentality is that with trump you would be getting the End of American Democracy as we know it.
Yep- and a billion USD of aid to Gaza to.
He “got stuff done” that would lead you to believe he’d be a particularly effective SoS? I must have missed that. I’m setting aside the whole “monetizing his position with foreign leaders” thing, though. He was pretty effective at that, especially with the Saudis.
I am obviously not going to delve into that in this thread, given the multiple moderator admonishments.