Correct and thank you.
Are there any "good" options for pro-Palestine voters (as opposed to "choose between bad vs. worse")
As a wise drummer once said, if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.
Love Neil Peart (RIP) and Rush is my favorite band, but I don’t see how this disagrees with anything I said since I clearly said I choose not to vote for either.
Same thing in this case, I’m not refusing to make a choice between Biden or Trump, instead I choose to vote for Cornel West.
This is where the analogy would fail for them. As I mentioned earlier, and as BB in the other thread has explicitly said and has already been stated here, those voters would reject any sort of sense of responsibility for Trump’s election under those circumstances. If they didn’t, we wouldn’t be having this discussion to begin with.
Good for you. A lot of green voters didn’t think Clinton was green enough so they made sure the least green president possible won. That makes total sense. But I’m sure they felt good about their choice when he was opening up protected land for drilling.
One of them is going to be shoved down your throat, no matter what pretentious self-indulgent performative thing you do. Your only real choice is which one.
BTW, I’m a straight white dude. I won’t like the Trump administration, but I’ll survive it, maybe even prosper. Will you?
Moderating:
Let’s not devolve into personal attacks. This is out of bounds. Dial it back.
Now, now, the blame can clearly be put on the Democrats for not doing enough to stop all those things.
Sorry. I’ll bow out of this thread.
You are welcome to stay in the thread if you choose. Just stay away from making personal comments that are insulting.
Yeah, I don’t know if I can do that. My feelings are deep, and I don’t trust myself to stay calm. Thanks though.
The choice isn’t between Biden and Nothing.
The choice is between Biden and Trump, and anyone who thinks that a Trump victory would be some sort of “moral” lesson sent to Biden and not a stab in the back of this country’s political system is wearing eclipse sunglasses.
Yeaaahhh, I dunno.
Personally, I’m hesitant to exhort people to vote against their consciences for pragmatic reasons. I may not agree with their decision, but I do think it’s kind of scapegoating them to preemptively blame them for taking away their support from a candidate who, in their view, has chosen not to do enough to deserve their support.
There’s also the longer view to be considered. In the last analysis, nothing actually changes politicians’ behavior except the credible threat of losing crucial support. At some point, there are going to have to be enough voters like Boudicca90 to get their elected representatives scared enough to make some actual sacrifices of their own immediate advantage.
That said, to be fair, I think there’s some convenient scapegoating going on on the other side too. It’s very easy to be mad at Biden in the current crisis for not doing enough to help Palestinians, but let’s face it, progressive voters so far as a bloc have done pretty much jack shit to make the wellbeing of Palestinians a meaningful US policy issue.
It has been many years now that the Democrats and US liberals in general have had a “PEP problem” (Progressive Except for Palestine). Mostly-unquestioning support for Israel is baked into much of the US political structure, and that is not going to change unless voters demand it. Voters have not been demanding it, so there hasn’t been any significant change, and now frustrated voters rightly concerned for Palestinians are venting their anger on Biden for not bucking the US political structure to alleviate this crisis.
I’m not saying that they shouldn’t be frustrated or disappointed or angry; I’m saying that we all share the responsibility for the way things are. As the twig is bent so grows the tree: Biden, like any other politician, was only ever going to put his own direct advantage at risk on behalf of a principle if we forced him to, and we didn’t force him to.
Call me cynical (really, I am), but I don’t think so.
Which is to say, I don’t think progressives can ever reach that true critical mass in the United States. Conservative-leaning voters are much better at marching in lockstep and “the moderate/pragmatic left” (for lack of a better term) outnumber progressives in this country and IMHO will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. The Democratic party in the current charged atmosphere will continue to be like a murmuration of starlings cycle after cycle, coalescing out of fear, spreading out over policy differences with random timing (say Supreme Court abortion decision vs Gaza) skewing which way it spills out at the polls.
Maybe. But then making actual sacrifices at the expense of their own immediate advantage when it means turning the country over to a party hostile to democracy doesn’t seem like a good idea. I defended Nader voters against the anguished cries of Gore supporters who blamed them for his loss, so I can’t disagree that you have a valid point. But if Trump is elected I don’t want to hear complaints from those who voted for someone besides Biden. They knew what was at stake.
Yes and no. Yes, if enough voters hold a particular position, that will eventually be more likely to be a position adopted by their party.
But the way that happens is by electing representatives who lean that way. No sane person is saying to anyone “don’t you DARE vote for that candidate in a primary election for state representative who holds position X, you must be loyal to the party!”. If enough democratic voters lean a particular way, that will (slowly) start to get reflected in statehouses, governor’s mansions, and congress.
But I just don’t see the mechanism by which this works if we examine only presidential general elections. Even ignoring the catastrophic damage that a second Trump presidency would do to all progressive causes and the fabric of American democracy itself, were there a lot of democrats after the 2000 election saying “hmm, well, a bunch of people in Florida voted for Nader, that cost us the white house, let’s take up their causes and adopt them as parts of the democratic platform”? Of course not! That’s just not how people think, and that’s not how our (stupid) two party system works.
Look, the establishment is wiiling to change, it just takes a lot of time and effort sometimes.
Biden was very anti-pot and used to support the Federal ban, but as the younger Dems spoke for change, he adjusted his position.
With any luck, once he beats Trump, he will turn up the pressure on the current asshole running Israel.
That is a country that has already been hijacked by its extreme Right, if Biden loses, we will be seriously fucked up.
So the only good option is if you’re in a swing state vote Biden. In any state make your voice heard to stop supporting the current leaders of Israel and this war. Get all sides to the bargaining table.
I know that—and you know that—but… 
I can’t forget Biden was the one who spoke out for marriage equality and finally made a convert of Obama when he did. I can’t forget Biden’s promise in his inaugural address to trans people: “We’ve got your back.” That is HUGE. The president went out on a limb for trans people. He’s earned my vote a million times over.
That assumes that the supporting the policies demanded by Boudicca90 and his like won’t cause them to lose even more support from other constituencies,. If Boudicca90 and their like force the issue to the point that the Democrats will lose without their support but they will also lose if they make the necessary changes, then all they have done is make the Democratic party unviable and handed over power to the Republicans.
What Boudicca90 wants is somehow a victory for minority rule where his minority view is the winner. Sorry but that is simply not in the cards.