ARG220 A Good Debater?

The BBQ Pit
81

Ok, so now you fault me for reading the study guide in my Bible. This is rich. Unless all of you are field scientists that actually discover EVERYTHING on your own, then you too have learned about the world through the works of others.

Jodi: You do make a good point that the authors of the study guides are human, capable of mistakes. That is EXACTLY why I look at the guide, and then do my own cross referencing, to make sure what they say makes sense. I know how to study the Bible on my own. In fact, without the study guide, I looked up every use of the word “yeast” in the Bible, and looked up every verse to make sure that it was in fact, used as a metaphor for evil, and corruption in every verse. Aren’t you proud that I did something on my own? :wink:

Adam

“Life is hard…but God is good”

82

I’m just going to quote my Bible’s study guide, regarding the parable of the yeast. This is from The Full Life Study Bible in NIV.

It talks about the yeast in the OT, which I’ve already mentioned, and then the yeast in Paul’s books, which I also mentioned…“Therefore many understand this parable to indicate evil, false doctrine and unrighteuosness exsisting and spreading within the visible kingdom of God.”

Then it goes on to give a million verses, and other notes about why “yeast” in the kingdom, and how we are to overcome it, and stand against the corruption which it stands for.

Given that yeast is a bad thing, indicating corruption, and evil in every other part of the Bible, we have no reason to believe that Jesus meant it in any other way. You don’t have to interpret this parable this way. But after careful examination of Scripture, I find that it is an accurate interpretation.

Feel free to disagree with me, but I’m done arguing. Peace. (For now…)

“Life is hard…but God is good”

83

Ok Adam, believe what you wnat (either way it doesnt matter to me). However in the bible dictionary in my other bible (New American Bible, Saint Joseph second edition), here is what it says about yeast:

Notice that you are somewhat right (not fully right mind you). However, yeast is not ALWAYS a symbol of sin and corruption, and it is not in Mt 13, 33. So, what I quoted before about the mustard seed and yeast parables is correct, they both talk metaphorically about the small beginnings of the kingdom of God, and how like yeast and mustard seeds has grown into something grand. Not about corruption and sin.

Wow, this is the only religious arguement i really have gotten into indepth. Thank you Adam for showing some of your ignorance.

84

Adam, you have never explained what the parable means. You have simply made vague statements about yeast being evil. You have at no time explained how “the kingdom of heaven is like an evil thing” makes any sense. The verse does not say “beware of letting the kingdom of heaven become like. . . .” The verse says “the kingdom of heaven is like. . . .”

This is not a matter of “different interpretations.” Choosing or not choosing to read “You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church.” as establishing Peter in the role that Catholics would later call pope is an act of finding different interpretations. What you appear to be claiming is a flat-out misreading of the words: the kingdom of heaven is evil.

I will wander out tomorrow to see whether I can find this wierd study bible of yours. Maybe that’s your only problem: you are looking at one of Satan’s study bibles.(?)

Tom~

85

Oh, and Adam? Please reconcile these quotes from your posts:

vs

(bolding mine.)

I recognize that the two parables form a couplet (and said so, above), but you did, indeed, claim they were one parable.

Tom~

86

My word. You guys can’t leave well enough alone. You want to continue the argument? Fine.

Doobieous. That dictionary is subject to error, just as the notes in my Bible are subject to error. Please keep that in mind.

Tom. I did say “parable” when refering to the parables of mustard and yeast. My mistake. I was always aware that they were actually two parables, although part of one little message.

If you go look for my Bible, you’ll have no trouble finding it. It’s widely used, and generally considered an EXCELLENT Bible, and study guide. Any decent Bible book store will have it. (I’m pretty sure they carry it at B. Dalton, and Barnes and Noble too.)
If you read through it, you have to remember that it’s a Full Gospel Bible, i.e. Pentecostal. Not that the Scripture is changed, but the study notes are choc-full of Full Gospel teaching, and belief. (Which is why I love it so much.)

If you look at my post above, you’ll see that I quoted the author of my Bible, and it explained what the parable of yeast meant.

I’ll take a stab, and go further than the author. I think that the kingdom of God is like the flour. Jesus didn’t say, “It’s like yeast,” and stop right there. He said it’s like yeast that a woman mixes in a large amount of flour. Obviously, Jesus would not be so confused as to say that the kingdom of God is evil. So, the kingdom is the “large amount of flour” and the yeast is the corruption present; in the form of false doctrine and teaching.

Note that in the KJ, the text says that the woman “hid in three measures of meal.” This would reinforce the belief that the yeast represents evil, because of what Paul says about yeast in 1 Corinthians. He says that “a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” In other words, this small amount can affect the whole. And again, why would the woman “hide” the yeast if it were a good thing? The text implies that she does it secretly. This reinforces the belief that the yeast stands for deception also.

I’m telling you guys. If you read the Scriptures, the yeast=evil thing really does make more sense. Like I said, you don’t HAVE to believe it, but it’s what I believe is the correct interpretation.

“Life is hard…but God is good”

87

Small question, Adam. You say that you read the study notes at the bottom, but just to make sure, you cross-reference them.
With what? You have already admitted that you won’t read anything that might possibly conflict with what you already believe. Therefore we have to believe that you are cross-referencing the Bible with itself, or with a book by the same authors that did the study notes at the bottom of your Bible. Which is it?

88

Adam, burn your book. You may claim it is EXCELLENT, but I have a problem with a reference work that claims, in spite of the text, that the kingdom of heaven is evil. The verse says (and I’ve checked the Greek) that the kingdom of heaven is like leaven/yeast. Whatever modifier your put on the next clause, to equate evil with leaven is to equate evil with the kingdom of heaven.

I am aware that it is useful to look for consistent usage in words in Scripture (or in any other work that is being examined). However, when the existence of a metaphor is used to override the actual meaning of a sentence, I think that the line separating reality and goofiness has been crossed.

At any rate, while I will check out this EXCELLENT reference that calls heaven evil, I think that we have pretty well established the level of your skills at critical thinking.

Tom~

89

Hello!? The parable talks about the kingdom of heaven being LIKE yeast NOT like meal. If it were talking about the kingdom being like meal, they would have said it.Go read Lk 13, 20-21. It is the same parable as Matthew wrote and says the SAME thing. There is no mention in Luke either that the kingdom of Heaven is the meal and the yeast is the corruption and evil as you claim it means. I think you are reading much too deeply and pulling things out of a hat to fit your argument here.

So what?

You pretty much keep ignoring what I tell you. Maybe my bible dictionary is wrong, according to you.I dont think that is so. You do afterall quote from the KJ version of the bible, which in my mind makes anything you quote suspect.
I suspect you think the bible dictionary interpretation is wrong just so you wont have to admit you may be wrong in what you are saying.

90

Um, excuse me for butting in again, folks, but I’d like to point something out: what is this, a freaking Seinfeld episode? You’re arguing about YEAST. Yeast, for goodnes sakes. Does anyone really give a rat’s tail about what yeast “stands for” in the Bible?

  1. Love God.
  2. Love thy neighbor as thyself.
  3. Interpret “yeast” to your liking.

Somehow, #3 just doesn’t seem as important as the first two commandments. This is an extremely pedantic conversation here. I wonder what a non-Christian would think if he was reading the board for the first time and stumbled onto this thread. What impressions of Christianity would he get from it? Is “yeast” really that important, to spend one’s entire day arguing over it’s symbolic meaning in someone’s study Bible?

91

OK, I’m going to make this as clear as day. At no time, in no way shape or form, does my Bible say ANYTHING about the kingdom of God being evil. NOT evil. NOT evil. Is that clear enough. The kingdom of heaven is NOT evil. And nowhere in my interpretation did I say it was evil. Do you guys understand that? My word.

Doobieous. I always, always quote from the New International Version. Of the million Scriptures that I’ve posted on the SDMB, I think I’ve used the KJ twice, and both instances were in this very thread, part 2. Didn’t you read my post when I told Tom that I use the Full Life Study Bible in NIV?

We see another instance of Jesus using the word yeast to mean something bad, or evil. It’s in Matthew 16.

  1. “Be careful,” Jesus said to them. Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Saudducees."
  2. They discussed this among themselves, and said, “It is because we didn’t have nay bread.”
  3. Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, “You of little faith, why are you talking amoung yourselves about having no bread?” …skip to verse 11
  4. “How is it that you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread? But be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”
  5. Then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast uaed in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

You see, this was Jesus using another example for yeast only three chapter later than the parable of yeast. Why would Jesus use two different meaning for yeast, especially, since He was Jewish, and already knew about yeast from the laws in Leviticus?

This is as far as I can go with this discussion. If you don’t see the connection, then so be it.

Oh, and Tom, trust me, that Bible is excellent. You may not think so, because it’s Full Gopsel, and will obviously not align with Catholic teaching, but it’s a powerful tool for studying God’s Word.

Adam

“Life is hard…but God is good”

92

Adam: “trust me” is not a valid proof of a position.

Again, I ask of you, do us all a favour, and take a debating class, college level preferably.

93

My take on Yeast:

I think yeast is a good thing, generally. I like to make pizza sometimes, and let me tell you, there’s nothing like yeast to make a good, thick crust. Of course, some may argue that thin crust is better and that yeast should NOT be used in pizza crusts, but I think they’re all heretical and I don’t think they’re true Yeastians. A true Yeastian would put the yeast in the dough and be glad he even has yeast. I believe Adam is not a true Yeastian, because he constantly denounces yeast as “evil.”

Now some of you may say, “How do you, Snarkberry, know for sure whether yeast is good or evil, since you also use extra seasonings that drown out yeast’s taste when you make pizza?” I just laugh at their ignorance, knowing that the seasonings just make the yeast taste better.

I also believe that yeast should be used when making leavened bread, but definitely should not be used for unleavened bread.

Adam is the anti-Yeast, if you ask me, and I will fight his heretical yeast ideas to the bitter end.

94

But seriously, Adam, here is what my Bible dictionary says about “leaven”:

[quote]
Leaven
Anything that in cooking produces fermentation, a lump of old dough being generally used. No leaven was allowed during the Passover feast (Ex. 12:15, 19; 13:7; Deut. 16:4), or in offerings made to God with fire (Ex. 29:2; Lev. 2:11; 7:12; Num. 6:15). It was probably forbidden because there was associated with it the idea of corruption. In the N.T. it was as a rule symbolical of sin (Matt. 16:6; Mark 8:15; Luke 12:1; 1 Cor. 5:7; Gal.5:9); but in Matt. 13:33 it is compared to the inward growth and influence of the kingdom of heaven (church) upon the earth.
<small>Holy Bible (King James Version):Bible Dictionary, Copyright 1979 by Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.</small>

So, according to this entry, leaven has two (2), count 'em, two different meanings in the Bible. So I side with Tom on this issue. And if you can’t figure out that one word can have two different meanings, I feel sorry for you.

95

Getting away from yeast for a bit . . . Adam, you made a point a few posts back that it’s ok for you to take the study notes in your bible as absolute truth. As you put it,

“Unless all of you are field scientists that actually discover EVERYTHING on your own, then you too have learned about the world through the works of others.”

You’re absolutely correct. The WORKS of OTHERS. Plural. The trick is to study many different viewpoints and make a decision based on as much data as you can gather. And then be willing to alter your beliefs as you receive additional data. THAT is what critical thinking is about. Not accepting one source as Truth and blinding yourself to all further input. That’s not faith. It’s stagnation.

Once again, it appears as though you are so insecure in your faith that you are afraid to listen to anything that runs counter to your warm little world view. Ghod gave you a mind, son! Use it!

The world is flat, dammit.

-andros-

There’s always a bigger fish.

96

Snark: Nah, i really dont give a rats ass what yeast means, but since this is the pit, and the topic was brought up, i thought i would reply, you know just for sake of argument? :slight_smile: (Hmm, i wonder is that what ARG stands for, because he likes to argue?).

Adam, point is: Yeast has a double meaning. Accept it. Just because Jesus says it’s evil and corrupt in one passage doesn’t mean it is in that specific parable (and so far two people have cited that the yeast has a double meaning).

You seem to have major problems understanding this very simple point we all have been making. Anyone that says that the yeast in Mt 13, 33 represents corruption and sin in the kingdom of heaven, makes me seriously wonder how strong their faith really is.

Tell you what, go back to school (or if you are in school, go enroll) and take a proper debating class. Saying “trust me” doesn’t cut it. Then maybe i will continue this conversation with you. Otherwise, I can’t be bothered anymore. You’re dismissed Adam.

97

Doobieous wrote:

Yeah, I don’t really care what “yeast” means either. I just thought I’d throw in that Bible dictionary quote to support Tom’s points, showing Adam that at least two other Christian religions believe differently. As I have said, it’s a silly issue to get all worked up about.
[NOTE: This message has been edited to fit onto your screen, and for content, by Snarkberry.]

98

Doob: there’s no way we’ll get him to understand that yeast has another meaning. After all, he posted on 09-14-1999 at 09:03 PM

Last I checked, Proverbs in the Bible called Pride a sin. Therefore, God sins.

Once you accept that, then Heaven being Evil or Corrupt is a logical conclusion.

99

Doobieous: Oh, I misunderstood what you were saying. Yeah, I suppose that it’s a valid subject for the SDMB BBQ Pit, even though silly. I wasn’t really talking about you when I denounced the subject as worthy of being a Seinfeld episode–that was directed mostly at Adam, who refused to admit he was mistaken.

Adam: It’s okay to be wrong or mistaken about a minor religious issue and still retain your faith. I know this from experience.

100

Monty: Silly me, i should have known. After all, Adam did say God was proud (ooo pride is a sin), and implied that he is proud (sin again) in himself for bringing the gospel here. Well, I’ll move on. Like I said earlier, it’s like talking to a brick wall. It has been fun, but the novelty only lasts so long. :slight_smile:

Ciao!