ARG220 A Good Debater?

Snarkberry:

Bill, this has nothing to do with Christianity. This discussion is about rational thought and literary criticism. The field of battle just happens to be a couple of verses in Scripture (which is where Adam chooses to forego rational thought). (Of, course, I noticed that you still waded in with an opinion a couple of posts later < eg >.)

I never did find a “Full Life Study Bible” at Border’s this afternoon. I did find about seven other study bibles and (surprise!) every one of them (including the Scofield, the Nelson, and the Harper-Collins) said basically that while there are many instances in the New Testament where yeast/leaven is used as a metaphor for a corrupting influence, in the case of Mt 13:33 this was clearly not true–that the verse meant that the kingdom of heaven would grow from a small, insignificant object to a very large thing. (A couple of sources mentioned that the “three measures” would equal about fifty pounds of flour.) Coupled to the preceding parable about the miniscule mustard seed becoming an enormous shrub, this seems to make sense.

I was amused to discover that the MacKenzie Study Bible specifically had a statement (paraphrased here) that a few people, noting that leaven is often used as a symbol of corruption, have distorted the words of Jesus to mean that leaven in this verse represents corruption in the kingdom of heaven.

I had initially accused Adam of making up whatever he wanted the verse to say. I must now retract that accusation: there are people who say the same thing that he does. Of course, that leaves us with the fact that Adam will parrot whatever strange belief that those people hold, even when his/their interpretation is a violation of the text that they are reading.

Adam can try to claim two contradictory meanings if he wants, but it only proves the point of this whole thread.
The verse said that the kingdom of heaven is like leaven. If leaven is a symbol of evil, the only logical conclusion is that Jesus meant that the kingdom of heaven is like an evil thing. All the talk of “hiding” the leaven or anything else is irrelevant. There is no possible reading of the words in the text of that verse that can avoid equating the kingdom of heaven and leaven. If leaven must be evil, then the kingdom of heaven must be evil.

As another interesting sidelight, most of the commentaries pointed out that the reason that bread containing leaven or honey in the OT could not be sacrificed, was that the Jewish people recognized that there was “life” in the fermentation process. It was wrong to burn a living thing. (In holocausts, the sacrificial animals had to have been cleanly killed before the holocaust consumed them). In other words, the reason for not burning/sacrificing leavened bread was not because it was evil, but because it contained life.
No one denies that leaven is, indeed, used as a metaphor for evil in several places. Every legitimate scholar notes that the use of the leaven/evil metaphor is dependent on context.


Tom~

Tomndebb wrote:

And oh, boy, does he! I can’t think of a more obvious conclusion than the one you came to about the kingdom of heaven being likened to leaven. But I’ve decided to stop criticizing Adam so much, so I’ll not say any more on this subject to him unless he specifically asks me to.

One of the hazards of not having anything to do all day except the SDMB. Man, I need a life!

I wrote:

Okay, Teeming Hundreds, I expect you to hold me to this statement. If any of you see me criticizing Adam excessively, please remind me of the above quote. I really do want peace between the two of us.

FYI for those of you who may not read the MPSIMS area…Adam has stated that he is leaving the boards for personal reasons. There’s a thread over there if you want to read more.

As for the thread topic at hand…Adam couldn’t debate his way out of a wet paper bag. And at some point, I think he sould pay for the injuries we’ve all received from banging our heads against a wall! :slight_smile:

Thanks Tomndebb! I knew you could help clarify this situation :). For me this was more about Adam’s critical thinking and debating skills. I wonder, if he has read tomndebb’s current post, does he now realize that several bibles all say the same thing that contradicts his statements (probably not, but hey it doesn’t hurt to speculate)?

I also noticed he was leaving the board for personal reasons. Could Me, Tomndebb, Monty, and everyone else who contributed have possibly driven him off of the SDMB for good? I surely hope not because it’s kind of a weak reason to leave, just because of a discussion we had here in the pit (Where it’s supposed to get fiery (Sp?)). I guess this is a case of: “if you cant stand the heat, get out of the kitchen”.

After reading some of ARG220’s posts, I think the question of whether he is a good debater is ludicrous.

He has clearly demonstrated that he is completely unfamiliar with the process.

He can’t argue much, either. Mostly, he prates.

AuraSeer accuses ARG of having an overly high opinion of himself. I believe this to be understatement.

I also believe that the attention that you gave to ARG in this thread is out of proportion to his abilities as an explainer of ideas.


If you’re an optimist, you haven’t been paying attention.

Nah. This is (at least for me) just a mildly amusing way to pass time. If it would have helped Adam see his way clear to rational thought, that would have been a bonus, but I never expected that outcome.

Adam declares that leaven always means evil in Scripture.
I throw out a single verse that refutes his statement.
Adam declares that even my verse equates leaven to evil.
I point out the inconsistency of his statement.
We wrangle a bit.
We all move on to other things.

In the meantime, I discover that:
there really are loons that publish the sort of silliness that Adam believes (scary but useful information);
the prohibition on offering leavened bread or honey at the sacrificial altar, where it is consumed by fire, is based on a recognition among the earliest Jews that some aspect of life is present in the fermentation process.

So for 20 minutes research at home and another 10 minutes at Border’s (plus an excuse to go into Border’s–as if I needed one), I get to have a bit of fun and actually learn something. Kinda what the SD is all about.


Tom~