No. Amongst those I don’t trust, however, is you. There are those I trust.
Your word means exactly zero to me.
Simple answer: It was fake as you’ve so aptly proven within 24 hours of “apologizing.” You might have noticed I’m not the only one who’s pointed that out.
That’s because you don’t listen. Listening leads to learning. I’m now firmly convinced that you are incapable of learning as you’ve proven you don’t listen. Start listening and stop shooting your mouth off about things which you have exactly zero correct knowledge and then maybe, just maybe, folks will start to believe you’re sincere.
Until that happens, I will continue to point out that you lie and that your apology isn’t sincere.
Just a small point… You seem to believe that Catholics believe that “works” will get them into heaven, while YOU believe that faith will get you there. Ok.
But did you ever consider the illogic of this judgment? If someone believes they are getting into heaven, or that there is a way in, or that heaven even exists, then isn’t it quite obvious that the FAITH part is already in place? They already have faith that God exists, and that heaven exists. It’s a done deal as far as that goes, and if what YOu believ is true, then anything they think or do after that is meaningless…isn’t it better that they believe they must do good, whether that be true or no? I find that much more appealign than the idea that simple belief in and of itself is sufficient!
So whether it is true or it isn’t true that they believe works will get you into heaven (and they’ve said it isn’t a million times, but…whatever) why do you judge it so much? It is a BENIGN belief. It is even a GOOD belief, because it theoretically drives Catholics to be better people.
Stoidela: Catholics, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, AND SO I’VE HEARD FROM actual people, is that you must be part of the Catholic church to get into heaven. Also, that you must perform all the sacraments. (I’m not really clear on what these are exactly. I think it’s communion, baptism, confession, marriage…although not in that order) Please note again, that this is what others have told me. (MANY others)
James says that “Faith without works is dead.” All followers of Christ are called to do the will of the Father. Please understand that Fundamentalists believe that you must persevere in the faith, and work for God. However, we do not believe that you must be baptised in a certain church, or perform certain rituals to gain entrance into heaven. We (I) believe that if you call on the name of Jesus, you will be saved. But it doesn’t stop there. you must live the life of a Christian, and “overcome” in this world. (Revelation chaps 1-3)
I’m still waiting for Tom to answer me about entrance into heaven. I really want to know what the official RCC teaches on the matter. Is what I’ve heard from people true? That being part of the RCC is the only way to eternal life? Or are these members of the Catholic church ignorant of their own faith? I need Tom to set me straight. (Or Pickman, or anybody else with knowledge of the official teachings)
I hope none of you are upset at this post. The Catholic beliefs I have mentioned were conveyed to me by many people I have spoken to in “real life.” I do not know whether they are accurate or not. And that is what I intend to find out from Tom, or anyone else. So, again I ask: What must a Catholic do, to gain entrance into heaven, according to the official teachings of the RCC. Thanks. (If you want to start a new thread on the subject, be my guest)
Well, I believe that your original question was what I would tell someome who asked what it took to be saved. I did not answer right away because I was trying to figure out which of the dozen or so answers I could give to that question would be most appropriate.
You have now defined the question a bit more narrowly, and I will tackle that.
(First, a quick note. The last time a priest (at least in the U.S.) claimed that only Catholics could get into heaven, the Church excommunicated him for heresy: Fr. Feeney in Boston nearly 50 years ago.)
Can anyone “earn” their way into heaven?
No. Augustine of Hippo settled that question in the early fifth century in his fight with Pelagius. Salvation comes only from God. People cannot even ask for Salvation, we can only accept or reject that which God offers to all people.
Where do the Sacraments fit?
Sacraments are special acts of worship which allow God and humans to interact, resulting in the people recognizing that God has filled their lives with grace. The RCC, probably better than any other western Christian religious group, recognizes that drama and ritual are excellent ways of conveying meaning and reinforcing belief. Each of the Sacraments is deliberately written in a dramatic mode. (There was a fair amount of accretion to those rituals between the 12th and 20th centuries, but most of that has been cleaned up since the Second Vatican Council.) The RCC believes very firmly that the Pauline “Body of Christ” is real in the community of believers. The Sacraments are always expressed in the context of the Church/Faith Community/Body of Christ. Failing to recognize this point causes all sorts of problems when people discuss the Sacraments. For example, the RCC does not teach that one has to confess one’s sins to a priest to obtain forgiveness. The teaching of the Church is that the moment that a person is truly sorry for having sinned, God immediately forgives the person. However, the relationship of person to God is not merely a singular, private experience. There is also the relationship to God in the entire community of the Body of Christ. For this relationship to be made whole, the sorrow for sin must be expressed to that community. Rather than having every person stand up and declaim all of their sinful actions publicly, each person is allowed to express their sorrow to the representative of The Body of Christ (i.e., the community and God), the priest, who then confirms the Reconciliation of the sinner with the community. “Confession” is formally known as the Rite of Reconciliation.
If someone believes that all connection between a person and God is a purely private activity, then none of this makes sense, of course. However, if you believe in The Body of Christ, what do you do to participate in it?
Who is saved?
Everyone has been saved by the actions of Jesus. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church(quoting the encyclicalLumen Gentium:
In other words, everyone is called to be saved. In the “belong or ordered” phrase, above, Catholics, and then other Christians, are not called to be first to be saved, but are given more responsibilities to carry out God’s Word. It is always possible to reject salvation, but salvation is not limited to a small number of “believers.”
The Catholic Church takes seriously the statement of Jesus that no one can come to the Father except through Him. We also take seriously, Jesus’s words concerning “many mansions” and Paul’s statements in Romans 2 concerning the justification of those who are not Christian. Those who are Christian have a serious responsibility to act in a “Christlike” manner and will be held accountable for their failures, but only God will determine who is actually saved. A person who is following their view of “the good” is, in the eyes of the RCC, following the call of Jesus, even if they do not express a belief in Jesus or even in God. The RCC believes that Catholics are following the wishes of God more closely than others [duh, who would stick with a group that said that they were almost as good as the next group over], but it leaves to God the decision of which persons have actually accepted salvation in their own ways.
One problem with the expression of the Catholic faith in the U.S. has been that the RCC outgrew its educational resources a long time ago. A great many people grew up Catholic with a rather poor understanding of what the RCC teaches on many levels. The Baltimore Catechism of the 1890’s was an attempt to address this problem, but it was written in a fixed language that was not adaptable to the experiences of the 20th century. When the social upheavals of the 1960’s occurred, a great many Catholic schools closed, leaving another gap in the ability of the RCC to pass on its traditions to an educated populace. It is quite possible to hear lots of strange things from Catholics. On the other hand, there are even stranger things being said by hate groups such as are found at www.chick.com.
On the other hand, using phrases such as “empty rituals” in total ignorance of the wealth of meaning conveyed in those rituals will hardly endear you to people of whose beliefs you are quite ignorant.
[[ Catholics, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, AND SO I’VE HEARD FROM actual people, is that you must be part of the Catholic church to get into heaven.]] Arg
That is not what the Catholic Church teaches, and quite frankly I don’t think you are telling the truth about what these “actual people” supposedly told you. The Church teaches that you may belong to just about any religion under the sun and still get to heaven.
“Catholics, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, AND SO I’VE HEARD FROM actual people, is that you must be part of the Catholic church to get into heaven. Also, that you must perform all the sacraments. (I’m not really clear on what these are exactly. I think it’s communion, baptism, confession, marriage…although not in that order)”
ARG, time for a quick lesson in critical thinking. Your belief that Holy Matrimony is a sacrament is correct. Now, think carefully … what do we know about Catholic priests?
Choose the correct conclusion:
Catholics believe that priests don’t go to heaven.
The “actual people” who gave you this tidbit of information about Catholicism were lying, or seriously misinformed.
Tom: Thank you. Your post was quite informative. I do, however, feel the need to point out a couple things.
So, does this translate as, “God will give you work, and THEN you’ll be saved?” Maybe you could clarify this for me.
This sentence hit me like a smack in the face. And this is where we run into many problems. According to this Tom, somebody doesn’t even have to believe in Jesus to follow Jesus. ??? Maybe you said that wrong, and I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. Because that makes absolutely no sense to me at all.
I’m out of time for now, and I’ll continue this post at a later time.
The statement to which you refer is not directly tied to Salvation, as such. It refers to the tasks assigned to or obligations placed upon believers. Those who understand more of what God wants are called upon to work harder to carry out God’s word. Salvation comes through Jesus, period. If you are Christian, you have more of a responsibility to carry out God’s work/plan/goal/whatever than if you are not Christian. Salvation does not come through works, but belief carries responsibility.
tomndebb:
ARG220:
I am not surprised that you have trouble with the concept. (Accepting the concept if you do understand it is a different isue.)
In short, Yes. God works in His own way. It is the belief of the RCC that the Spirit of God is in the world, encouraging people to do right. Many never hear the call; others do hear the call without necessarily hearing or understanding the Christian message. If you want to limit God by denying that possibility, go ahead. Based on everything you’ve posted, I would not expect you to accept this idea. On the other hand, it is not something that the RCC simply “made up.” We can point to Scriptural precedents for this message (Romans 2–especially 2:14-16, God prompting Melchizedek to honor God’s victory through Abraham despite the fact that Melchizedek was not among those chosen by God through Abraham, etc.).
You are free to dispute our conclusions and our interpretation of Scripture, of course, but you are not free to say we invented it. As to your ability to understand it–I can’t control your understanding or your belief.
This makes perfect sense to me. And it would explain the ignorance of the Catholics that I’ve spoken to.
Big Iron: You said:
Ok, first, are you Catholic? And if so, then could you explain how being Hindu, or Jew, or Muslim…etc, get’s you into heaven.
Tom says that :
So, this contradicts your statement on what the RCC teaches, does it not? I think perhaps, that one of you is wrong. OR, that you’re both right, and there are teachings in the RCC that contradict one another. ??? Maybe one of you could staighten me out on this point.
Big Iron: Maybe your statement on the teachings of the “Church” is similar to my statments on “saved Catholics, and saved Jews.” But still, if one holds to the major tenets of another religion besides Christianity, then they most certainly do not believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven. So, like I said, maybe you could clear things up for me a bit.
Fretful: I don’t know much about the Sacraments at all. (In fact, I can’t even list them) So, your question confuses me. The only thing that seems certain is that the people I’ve spoken to, were confused about their own religion.
Tom: So, let me see if I understand this correctly. You’re saying that it’s possible to obey the law, and do good, even without believing in God. I understand this concept. It would be like me somehow following all the Ten Commandments, but never realizing they came from God, right?
This teaching, in and of itself, is not so bad. However, when you teach it, alongside the teachings of Jesus, it makes no sense at all. And I say that because believing in Jesus is the only way to heaven in the first place. (Which you already knew)
After reading Romans 2, I could see how this supports the RCC teaching. But as you know, it is dangerous to pick and chose Scripture to fit your needs. That passage in Romans must be read with the full knowledge of God’s will, and the will of His Son Jesus. And of course, you know that the real “Law” says that you must believe in the Son to enter the kingdom.
I guess there’s no other way I can explain myself here. You’re right in that I don’t understand the concept of “following Jesus, but not believing in Him.” It’s really not even logical, if you think about it. Paul says in Romans 2 that the Gentiles follow SOME of the law without knowing it (my paraphrasing). But then again, so do Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and many other religions. I mean, I’m sure that most religions teach that you should love your neighbor, and help the poor. Are you saying that every religion that teaches this is truly follwing Jesus?
My head hurts from trying to put myself in your shoes Tom. I understand where the church got the idea. But I truly believe that it’s a misinterpretation of Scripture.
{{[[A person who is following their view of “the good” is, in the eyes of the RCC, following the call of Jesus, even if they do not express a belief in Jesus or even in God.]] Tom
This sentence hit me like a smack in the face.}} Arg
Too just and logical for you, huh?
{{ And this is where we run into many problems. According to this Tom, somebody doesn’t even have to believe in Jesus to follow Jesus. ??? Maybe you said that wrong, and I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. Because that makes absolutely no sense to me at all. }}
You are actually admitting that you can’t comprehend the idea of following the path set by another without knowing anything in particular about the one who made the path, or believing said trail-blazer was “God”?
{{[[One problem with the expression of the Catholic faith in the U.S. has been that the RCC outgrew its educational resources a long time ago. A great many people grew up Catholic with a rather poor understanding of what the RCC teaches on many levels.]] Tom
This makes perfect sense to me. And it would explain the ignorance of the Catholics that I’ve spoken to. }} Arg
So what’s your excuse?
{{[[The Church teaches that you may belong to just about any religion under the sun and still get to heaven.]] Arizona Ranger
Ok, first, are you Catholic?}}
I was raised Catholic, but I’ve since wised up and don’t waste my time on organized religion except as an academic matter – except, of course, for J.R. “Bob” Dobbs’ mighty Church of the SubGenius, the One True Church, and my own personal First Church of Floyd, Barber, which is even oner and truer than Dobbs’.
[[ And if so, then could you explain how being Hindu, or Jew, or Muslim…etc, get’s you into heaven. ]]
The point, which you adamantly refuse to get because you seem to think that “salvation” is primarily a matter of being in the right fan club rather than living a righteous life of decency toward others, is that “being” of a particular reason doesn’t get you anywhere in and of itself. The Mother Church, however, teaches that, no matter what religion, a person can still get to heaven with the appropriately good heart and life.
[[Big Iron: Maybe your statement on the teachings of the “Church” is similar to my statments on “saved Catholics, and saved Jews.” But still, if one holds to the major tenets of another religion besides Christianity, then they most certainly do not believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven. So, like I said, maybe you could clear things up for me a bit.]]
You don’t need to think that Jesus is the only way to heaven, you just need to follow the basic path described – do unto others as you would have them do unto you (and really mean it in your heart). Love thy brother as thyself.
For those of you who may still think ARG220 was telling the truth when he “apologized,” please see his last few posts above. Also, pleaee key in on his statement “ignorance of the Catholics.”
For Snarkberry: you cited the same part of the D&C I told ARG220 was one of the most beautiful aspects of the LDS faith, but in your citing of it, I think you left out another portion of the D&C which obviously applies in this case. Isn’t there another part of the D&C which tells us how to treat those who prove they’re not sincere?
I’m hoping that he will stick to his apology in general, even so.
Well, there’s the biblical and extra-biblical “wiping the dust off” of shoes, and the commandment not to cast pearls to the swine (and no, before anyone flames me for saying that, I don’t think Adam is “swine” literally–just an analogy, not to give things of great worth to those who will not be receptive to or understand them). That’s all I can think of at the moment. Were you thinking of those, or of a different passage?
Monty: Oh, duh, you’re talking about me, not Adam. Point well taken. I do need to be more sincere and less hypocritical. Gimme some time, dammit. Sheesh!
“Fretful: I don’t know much about the Sacraments at all. (In fact, I can’t even list them) So, your question confuses me. The only thing that seems certain is that the people I’ve spoken to, were confused about their own religion.”
My point was that you don’t HAVE to know much about the sacraments to figure out that what you were told is ridiculous. Marriage, as you indicated in your post, is a sacrament. Therefore, IF Catholics believed that nobody got to heaven without receiving all seven sacraments, they would believe that no non-married people were going to heaven. It should be obvious that they don’t, in fact, believe anything of the sort.
Incidentally, Holy Orders (being ordained as a priest) is also a sacrament. So it’s HIGHLY unusual for one person to receive all the sacraments. (And yes, your friends are confused.)
And where did you encounter these actual people? In your church community, perhaps? If so, That goes a long way toward explaining why you were given incorrect information.
No, what you have been told is not true. Which should come as no real surprise, since so much of what you have been told and subsequently parroted is not true.
Or, you know, anyone who goes and searches out information, instead of relying on what they’re told by people who claim to be Catholic.
And since real life appears in quotes, I must ask again, did you meet these folk through your church?
And, inre Tom’s statement of RCC doctrine:
Which is not at all surprising, Adam. You are incapable of accepting that there are others who do not feel as you do. Indeed, that there are others whose beliefs are opposed to yours who consider themselves Christians.
And to Bob:
And a better question, posed to you, Adam, would be, “Why does being Hindu, Jew or Muslim automatically assure you that you’re not going to heaven?” Because you were told so? By whom?
To Tom:
So you say, Adam. I don’t believe for a moment, though, that you actually do.
Or accepting that they were set out by others before the Bible got around to printing them up, yeah.
::Sigh:: To you it makes no sense. This all goes back to accepting that others feel differently, and also consider themselves right.
Good advice, Adam. Maybe you could point this out to your pastor, and any others who use the bible to uphold their own beliefs and denigrate those of others.