Adam, I’m going to give you a lesson that will help you get along on this board. Look at your keyboard. Okay? Now find the ‘I’, the ‘M’ and the ‘O’. These letters stand for “in my opinion.” Whenever you want to post something, type those letters first. IE: “IMO, Catholics aren’t Christians” or “IMO, you’d better Turn or Burn.” See, then you aren’t spouting lies, you’re spouting opinions. IMO, they are ill-informed and bigoted opinions but, hey, at least they’re properly labeled.
Jess: IMO, it’s a waste of time to explain the concept of opinion to Adam. I’ve tried numerous times and when it comes to the Bible, he just refuses to accept that the folks reading it to him weren’t present at the times described.
Adam: Personally against you? No. Against your type? Yes. Please review PLDennison’s excellent riposte to you when you called him a type for further edification.
You’ve borne false witness a number of times. The most amusing incident is when you stated as fact what you believed the Mormons to teach. Yet, when proven to you that was not a fact, you then stated that you did not have to read their books to know what it says. That’s a false witness.
You select and choose from both the Old and New Testaments and yet you wonder why some of us query you on that. C&P is an art, not a theological discipline.
Again, I say to you: read the Koran for its advice. As I’ve said earlier, I couldn’t care less what faith, if any, you follow. However, you constantly do what the Koran tells folks not to: Speaking of God what ye know not.
I should have never said anything to Monty in public. But he twisted my words in public, so maybe it was a good thing to bring it out? I’m not sure. It’s too late anyway, the cat’s out of the bag.
I have never taken someone’s words, and then twisted them to mean something else as Monty has done to me. Monty, were you doing it as a joke? If so, perhaps you could have told me before I got upset?
And I think I’ll start using that “IMO” acronym more often. Thanks for the advice Jess.
Sorry I got you all tangled in my spat with Monty. (Or whatever you want to call it)
A couple of months back you posted that Catholics believe that they are saved by works. This is a common falsehood spouted by fundies, and perhaps you were unaware then that it was not true. However, several people, not all of them Catholic pointed out your error. Since then, you have repeated the lie on more than one occasion despite the fact that you have been corrected on each occasion.
Most recently, you posted that Catholics “worship” Mary and the pope. While a few misguided Catholics may worship Mary (probably the same percent of Catholics as there are fundies handling venomous snakes) there are NO Catholics who “worship” the pope. The official teaching of the Church is that we do not worship Mary.
You continue to post falsehoods. For some of this stuff, it may be ignorance (although, considering that this site is dedicated to correct information, willful ignorance comes off looking like arrogant stupidity). However, for the “saved by works” falsehood, you have been shown that it is wrong on multiple occasions–therefore it is not ignorance, but a lie.
In contrast, SoxFan59 and I have discussed (and disagreed about) the notion of prayer to Mary and the saints. His position is that there is no Scriptural basis for asking for a saint to intercede for one (which is the basis of the Catholic “prayer” to saints). He, however, while never backing down on the points that he has made, has never simply leveled the charge of idolatry or false worship and run away without backing up his statements. That is your method: “If I don’t actually engage in honest discussion, I don’t have to admit that I don’t know what I’m talking about and I can continue to say whatever I want and just claim ‘ignorance’ for my lies.”
You have made similar statements about other religions. As Monty has pointed out, when you have been referred to a site that can present their viewpoint, you usually post that you looked around and fled before Satan got you, or words to that effect. The problem with that attitude is that you wind up posting what some other bigoted fundie told you about the other religion rather than what the other religion actually believes.
I have no problem discussing the differences between Judaism and Christianity with Dex or Rowan–even when we obviously disagree over a point on which only one of us could possibly be correct. I can discuss the different approaches to God taken by Evangelical and Fundamentalist Christians vs Catholic Christians with Sox, because we treat our differences as points to be examined and we don’t insist that we know what the other person believes better than they do. (Note that Sox is a Fundamentalist, not a fundie.)
Sorry. You look like one of the followers of the Nine Commandments to me.
About Catholics, I said (in this very thread mind you):
Tom says:
More twisting of my words. Is this the theme now? If you look above, you’ll see that I said that Catholics “pray to Mary, and pray to the saints.” I really, really hope that you’re not going to deny that Catholics pray to Mary.
All this talk about me lying, yet you guys misinterpret what I say, and it makes ME look bad. Can ya guys do me a favor, and stop putting words in my mouth? Thank you.
P.S. Haven’t you read my apology in GD? I’m a changed man Tom. If you notice, after that post in GD, I’ve been different. Compare my posts, you’ll see the difference.
Um, Adam? Rapture ain’t in the Bible either, chil’. Also, reference your comment about Catholicism being empty faith: faith without works is dead faith, perchance “dead” in this case means empty?
Gee, I wonder who said that faith without works is dead and in what book?
I really think you might want to retreat just a tad more before you launch into any type of theological debate with the esteemed denizens/netizens of the Straight Dope Message Board. After all, a few of them have studied the subject for a blame lot longer than you’ve been alive. Also, their teachers were competent.
Ummmm, Adam, check out your own quote. You say that Catholics “exalt” Mary to a level equal to Jesus and God, that certainly sounds like worship to me.
Now, I can understand that you didn’t mean to say Catholics worshipped Mary, but reading that quote certainly makes it sound like thats what you were saying.
Also, I guess you failed to spot the fact that in that quote you say that Catholics think they are saved by works, which Tom has already informed you is incorrect.
Noone twisted your words around. Ok, Monty had some fun with the 12 year old comment. But, for the most part your own words have come back to strangle you.
You mention that you have changed, well, I do agree, but this last post is back to the old walk. You quote yourself spreading incorrect information. Ignoring the corrections as if you hadn’t heard them. In order for there to be a conversation, both parties have to listen, Adam, are you listening? Tom wasn’t attacking you, he was correcting some some of your assumptions. You can listen to him and gain new knowledge, which doesn’t mean you have to change your beliefs, you will just have new facts to intelligently discuss those beliefs. Or, you can stick with your old incorrect information and hurl stones at objects you barely understand.
Adam, I saw a post recently where someone claimed Catholics “worshipped” Mary and the pope. If you were not that author and I simply confused your statements, here, with that other author then I apologize for that.
However: (as pricciar has noted) in the very same post you again quote yourself claiming “They believe that salvation is based on works.”
If you cannot force yourself to quit posting this lie, I am going to continue to place you among the rest of the Believers of Nine Commandments. (After all, all true Biblical Literalists handle venomous snakes, right?)
As to praying to saints: it is an act of requesting intercession, not an act of worship. The word pray is used in the context of «to request», not «to worship». You do not have to agree with that. You do not have to accept that the RCC has good theology on this point. To claim that “they exalt those humans to the level of Jesus, and the Father,” however, is to simply refuse to look at what the RCC teaches. As noted above, SoxFan59 and I only came to an agreement to disagree in our ealier discussion, but he, at least, did not make judgments from ignorance about the attitudes and teachings of the RCC.
As to your “new attitude,” I see you posting ignorance as fact, then reposting the same lies while defending yourself. You’ll have to do better than that before I believe that you have done anything but “tone down” your bigotry and lies.
(Pat may have been mistaken when he said I was not attacking you. On the other hand, I will generally ignore most Catholic bashing as long as it does not include direct and repeated lies. I’m afraid you have passed my standard tolerance level. A lot of people disagree with Catholic teaching: Jews, Atheists, Protestants, Muslims, (some Catholics), among many others. I will let pass any statement that describes the RCC position as wrong–as long as it correctly identifies the RCC position. Your knowledge of the RCC is based on hearsay from ignorant (and often hateful) people. Until you learn what any other group believes, I would suggest that you simply say that your beliefs are different without attempting to describe their beliefs.)
Hi, I’m back from my short pilgrimage to my personal “Mecca” in search of forgiveness from God for my many sins. I’ve found that this is something that is inseparable from time, and so I feel that I can contribute to this message board in the meantime.
Adam, you say you’re a “changed man.” What I have found is that change is usually a slow and often painful process, not a sudden transformation into someone who’s 100% better than he was before. As one who has needed to change drastically (turn or burn!) and who continues to have this need, I can tell you, you don’t go from Point A to Point Z without passing through Point B, Point C, etc.
Keep trying! I think it’s great that you had the guts to post that apology. Many people wouldn’t. I’m sure you will fit in on this MB with such a good attitude, if you will stick to it. If you should stumble and fall, get up again. That’s my advice to you. :::Getting down off soapbox:::
(And BTW, you’re not the only one who has come under fire for expressing religious views on the SDMB. Yours truly went through such a period too when I first came onto the AOL SDMB. Live and learn…)
Snarkberry: it would have taken guts had the apology been real. As it is, it was just another in a long line of lies by our buddy, Adam. “The ends justify the means” is wrong. Too bad Adam doesn’t understand that.
Monty, I agree that Adam has made mistakes. Of that, there can be no doubt. And he has been willfully ignorant of other faiths, as you said, and he has spoken of God what he knew not (IMO). But I’m willing to give him as many chances as possible to change the way he looks at things. Like I said in my above post, change usually doesn’t happen all at once. And believe me, if God can tolerate me and is willing to forgive me for the things I have done, I should certainly be willing to forgive others. To not forgive Adam would be the greater sin. Jesus said something to the effect of, forgive seventy-times-seven. And in the D&C, he said “of you it is required to forgive all men” (D&C 64:10). I think that’s a pretty solid scriptural basis for forgiving and loving Adam in spite of his errors, however willful they seem to be.
I’m not trying to lecture you, because God knows I need to work on this part of the gospel as well, BADLY. I’m just explaining my position. “Forgive to be forgiven” is a gospel law. I MUST forgive Adam if I want forgiveness for MY sins. Selfish? Maybe so. But I’m no saint and I really need forgiveness, so that’s the path I must travel.
Tom: Thanks for the apology. It means even more since it wasn’t neccesary. And I really should stop shooting my mouth off about the Catholic church. The honest truth is that everyone that’s Catholic says that “if I’m a good person, then I’m going to heaven.” (At least, that’s what the dozens of Catholics I’ve talked to say)
James (the apostle) says that faith without works is dead. I agree with that totally. But it just SEEMED to me that all Catholics thought they could work their way into heaven. I’m curious about something Tom. If somebody asked you, “How do I get to heaven?” What would your response be?
Bill: Welcome back. And thanks for the advice.
Monty: -sigh- Are you one of those people that trusts nobody? It’s as if my word means nothing to you. You’re basically calling my apology “fake.” And I’ll never understand why.
My god, Adam, are you really so dense as to not see the contradiction in those two sentences strung together?
And are you even the ten times more dense you’d need to be to not understand how this has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on “what Catholics believe?”
Geez, I was willing to give you another chance. But now I’m really starting to think that you’re just a moron. I mean, literally. A moron. Seriously.
Snarkberry said - “And believe me, if God can tolerate me and is willing to forgive me for the things I have done, I should certainly be willing to forgive others.”
How do you know that god tolerates you and has forgiven you? I mean this with all honesty. I’m an agnostic (borderline athiest), and I’m curious as to how you know what god thinks about you.
I didn’t say that God tolerates and has forgiven me…I said “IF” he can do those things, which I believe he can, eventually.
If you want to know how God communicates with mankind through personal revelation, ask the LDS missionaries in your area. They can give you a much better answer than I can, because I’ve lived a mostly wicked life myself and have disqualified myself from having personal revelation. If and when God does forgive me, I will again be eligible for personal revelation in my life. Until then, I’m basically on my own, blind.
The missionaries are in the phone book under The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
