Arturo's open letter to Lynn, et al

The BBQ Pit
41

It’s not. That’s an easy concept. And it works great.
But what if you love it here but are sad to see a few - well, quite a few - bad apples spoiling the barrel.
Yes, this is just a message board. And mobs can rule. But is it really so bad to have someone point out a better way? If you don’t agree with them, hit the back button.
At least people, be honest. This discussion would not even be taking place if there was not a pile on mentality.
I don’t so much side with Arturo as I do with Lib (sultan was being a jerk).
But I’m sure the Taliban was saying the same thing: If you don’t like it here - Leave! Yet we are over there fighting for the Afgan people right now. The place is not bad, a few of the people were.
So some of us would like to see the Boards mature a little. Doesn’t mean they will. Doesn’t mean they should! But does it mean we shouldn’t try? Why is that such a difficult concept?
And there is also a ‘protect our own’ means-justify-the-ends attitude. Lots of examples. Pick one, Fenris for example. These quotes came out of his recent "The ‘Why was [banned person’s name] banned?’ thread ":

Yet over in Cafe Society the rockin’ master poster posted this…

…in my request for music info. That is his post in its entirety! Nothing to the OP, wrong forum, no getting called on it in that thread. And he later justified his remark by saying something like, ‘well, I like the mods so it’s ok’.

And darkcool - I feel like I have a puppy following me around:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=91107
And after he/she got spanked here:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=91760
They got clever here:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=91699

Look, I like this place. A lot. Yeah, I’ve complaned about things in the past. But I tried to do it correctly. When I made a mistake I apologized for it. I learn from my mistakes. I’m not bashing the boards, I’m not bashing the mods. I’m not better than anyone, and less than some. I’m not whinning. I’m just saying at least be honest about what goes on on this message board.
There are some great people here (Duck Duck Goose, Chronos, Tranquilis and Coldfire to name a few - and I name these posters because I respect them and their opinions despite having had disagreements with them in the past). And it’s a great place to be. But when I hear this much grumbling and name-calling towards people who suggest we take a look at ourselves, I’m reminded of the Jehovas Witnesses who want to tell me all about their way of thinking but hold their hands over their ears and yell la la la la la when I try to tell me about mine.

42

to which Dropzone replied:

And I say: yer both sissies. I give dirty looks to suns, which go supernova to create the raw ore I need. When it falls to earth, I dig the raw iron ore out with my bare hands. I squeeze the pure iron out of the ore the way others wring out a sponge. And I don’t have to pound it on a forge or with my bare hands, I jest give it a stern look and it shapes itself into a paperclip for fear of the consequences if it doesn’t.

Fenris

43

er… when I try to tell “them” about mine.

44

No. I didn’t. I have no idea why you’d make such a bizarre accusation, but I assure you, I didn’t post to that thread, nor did I “later justfy” any remark, as I never said the original.

Fenris

45

Well I went to your link. And that wasn’t Fenris, it was Zenster. As for your point with it, don’t ask me. I’m not a mod.

46

My most humble apologies to Fenris, of course I mean’t Zenster.
Despite my huge cluster-fuck up- the point remains.

See I told you I make mistakes. :wink:

47

Again…I hear the missive…“if you don’t like it, then leave”…

Well, not having read every fucking thread in Great Debates (as, i DO have a life), I kinda have to agree with it. The SDMB seems to have become kind of tepid regarding topics that may be construed as a bit different.

YMMV, but I DO remember the great cockroach debates, the pigeon things and whatnot. Where is it all now???

Now we get…fuzzy, bunny people in MPSIMS; hateful posters in the Pit, a bunch of total losers that seem to think that even though the election was over a long time ago they’re comment will make a difference :rolleyes: and…AND people that think, as usual, that the whole freaking world revolves around them.

Look people, I DO have a life. I believe that for the most part, the majority of the posts on this board could be totally ignored. BUT, there is that other small percentage that makes a hell of a lot of sense and actually makes not only me, but also my kids think.

This, people, is a good thing.

So then, stop with the love it or leave it shit.

Oh yeah…you don’t like what I have to say? Then YOU go defend your Country like I did. And end up retired due to injuries…like I did…

48

What I found amusing/interesting was this comment…

First off, it assumes that only the people who get “attacked” are the ones with nonconformist, feather-ruffling ideas. Second, if it were true, it would mean that people like me, December, Stoid, Extank, Elucidator, Collounsbury, Pepperlandgirl, ElvisL1ves, Scylla, Unclebeer, Czarcasm, Minty Green, Libertarian, Diane, and Milossarian (among others… these’re the names that just came off the top of my head) would all have been banned long ago. Note that two of the supposed “feather rufflers” are mods themselves.

So, with that said, I utterly reject the notion that people with “different ideas” are automatically pounced upon, and restate my belief that the vast majority of instances that start a major “pile-on” have been caused by instances of jerkish behavior. I also will note that all these supposed “pile-ons” have almost always been instantly dispelled by the person being targeted typing in two simple words: “I apologize”.

49

  1. Pile ons: We have a lot of people now. People who like to talk, most of them. So they all want to get their two cents in, even if someone already said it. Does it really bother you that there’s a bunch of people flaming you? If you have, say, four people flaming you, you’ve probably made some kind of communication error that pissed people off. Any more people who come along, well, who the hell cares? You’ve already got feedback.

Umm… are you suggesting we should be just as friendly to people who say we’re petty, cliquish and small-minded as people who like us?

People who are nice to people have people being nice to them. People who announce their presence by denouncing people are not liked by said people. This applies to real life as well. If you start off by denouncing an entire group, you are not likely to get a friendly reception.

This is not advanced social intercourse.

–John

50

Ok, I kind of got lost in this thread – real life intervened – but since I opened my big fat mouth, I thought I’d try to make myself clear. But I’m not going to go quoting and responding to 14 different posters – I don’t have that kind of patience.

First of all, I thought I was being extremely nice. I’ve recently decided to spend more time in the Pit, but I could probably count on one hand the number of times I’ve sworn. I think I have been up-front.

Now, I’m not piling on. I addressed Lib in his other thread right off the bat, with my honest opinion. This thread seems to be a sequel to it, so I see no reason why I shouldn’t continue my thoughts here. If there just happens to be 10 other posters who agree with me, so be it. If my opinion on the matter were in the minority, I guess I would just have to lump it.

Here’s the thing – this is just a message board. It exists as it is. It is fluid. It changes. It ebbs. It flows.
I roll with the punches. If something or someone rubs me the wrong way, my first instinct isn’t to start a thread to announce to the Teeming Millions that things are upsetting the Great and Powerful Batty. In fact there has been a few times in the past year and four months where I have been upset with something or someone here – and if you feel like researching my history, you could probably figure out those times, because … I steered clear of the place until I felt I had my head on straight.

I do think it is arrogant and pompous for someone to register, post three times, and then declare that the place sucks. Why should I give that any sort of credence? Why should I respect that opinion? If Cecil started a thread and said, “You all suck, and I’m pulling the plug” – that I’ll respect.

“If you don’t like it, leave” may be hackneyed, but at least it offers a solution. The constant whining about minority opinions being shit on, and cliques and nazi moderators and whatever is just that – whining.

“Help, help, I’m being repressed!”

That doesn’t impress me if your name isn’t Michael Palin and there isn’t a motion picture camera pointing at you.

Oh, and I can’t be more like Fenris, because – big surprise – I’m not Fenris. He’s a miler. I’m a sprinter. He can compose epic posts that hold together and make a point and hold their humor. I get lost in my own words after about three sentences. I’m a one-liner kind of guy. Hey, it works for me. This post is an anomaly, and I must admit I think I need a nap now.

51

Wow, I’m honored to be mentioned in the same sentence as Unclebeer, Czarcasm, Minty Green, and Diane.
I feel so unworthy!

52

So are ya DIShonored to be mentioned with the rest of us?

It’s a crazy crowd…

53

Stoid, you know I woud never feel dishonored to be mentioned with the rest of you. I’m sorry for my thoughtless statements. I’m honored to be mentioned in that group at all. :slight_smile:

54

Well, you certainly wouldn’t fit in with the Fatherjohn’s and the Serlin’s, that’s for sure… :smiley:

55

Arturo has made several valid and truthful points in this thread and his ATMB OP. His assessment of the bad points of this board are dead on in my opinion.

In all fairness, his posts have failed to recognize the good points and the positive about this message board. It’s there, it’s just buried under the load of crap that he so accurately speaks of.

I’d love it if this guy would stick around. He’d be a plus. He would come to learn of the good that this board has to offer…But sadly, he probably would eventually be either banned, run off, or get feed up and leave.

There is value in what he wrote. I am quite positive that many others feel the same way. Sadly, the folks that need most to internalize his critique will not do so. Alas, it is human nature at work.

Thanks anyway Arturo. I appreciate what you wrote.

Krispy

56

“internalize”? Krispy, you wouldn’t be a management consultant would you?

57

And the above is what, if not whining?

58

[/quote]
I bet if he’d said how great we all are, he’d’ve been just swell, eh?

[quote]

Lib, this isn’t fair. If you were criticized, would you accept it without question?

Answering his questions and his complaints does not make us bad people.
He challenged the board, but when the board reply its considered a “Pile-on”.

59

Certainly not! And that was exactly my advice, that we take a moment to examine and question ourselves. If we believe that that is a bad thing, then we are closed-minded and ignorant.

The criticism that started all this came from a FAN of Straight Dope. There is no a priori reason to believe that he is just another troll with a chip on his shoulder. He prefaced his remarks with disclaimers every way from Sunday, like, “Maybe I just don’t ‘get’ internet culture,” and “I don’t generally spend much time in online message boards - I don’t know the etiquette or the jargon,” i.e., he was explaining that he was not familiar with the ins and outs of message boards. That alone indicated a fresh perspective that might be worth a look.

He summed up his viewpoint of the message board with a polite, telling, and pithy remark: “Now this message board. I’m sad.” Not, ‘I hate you!’ Not, ‘You guys suck!’ And not, ‘Play by my rules or I’m going home!’ Simply, “I’m sad.” This tugged at my heart enough to make me open my mind and listen. What is the harm in that?

The only comment he made that bit, just a little, was this: “Yet I never would have thought fifteen years ago that one of my favorite writers would eventually gain a following of apostles who would fail to meet standards set by the lowliest people I have ever met in my life.” Well, I say fair enough if the lowliest people he ever met were verbal snipers who couldn’t take a joke but loved dishing them out and held unfavored people to a standard different from the standard to which they held favored people. Jackaling him for that statement is the height of hypocrisy, especially coming from people who’ve turned insult into a fine art. Us, in other words.

He wrote: “It seems less like you all want to fight ignorance but rather want to find some sense of community which will uphold your egotism and ideas.” Well, duh. Here we are doing just exactly that. Fenris started a Let’s Feel Good About Ourselves pit thread, and we’re all consoling ourselves in it. Meanwhile, out here, we’re blasting Arturo with our ego bullets.

But again, the great irony that hangs over all this, as noted by Cnote Chris, is that Arturo, new though he may be, exactly pegged his fate. In other words, we’ve become so damned predictable that a lurker can tell which way our knees will jerk based on nothing more than past history. We’re a bunch of sheep. (“Hell, no we’re not bahhh-bahhhh!”) Even my opening a pit thread, the only place you’re allowed to make (minimal) criticisms of the board, was met by predictable shut-up-lib posts. This is the very place where it is impossible to have any meaningful discussion or dialog, and yet is the place where we choose to hear (or rather taunt) criticisms. Bizarre.

Arturo wrote: “Take this for what you make of it and I’ll wake up tomorrow wishing I had thought this out better and you can close this thread because it’s in the wrong forum or because I offended some poor, withering soul and then I’ll go on with my life.” Sure enough, that is exactly what happened. A few posts later, “I’m locking this thread instead of moving it. Let it Serve As An Example.”

And in between was absolute predictability. Bang! You’re in the wrong forum. Bang! Here’s a link. Bang! Who gives a shit what you think!? Bang! Go the hell away.

It is always sad when a person who has accomplished so much just sits on his laurels, getting them all crushed and shitty. We are sitting on ours. Yes, this place is great. But, dammit, it won’t stay that way if we refuse — refuse! — to be vigilant and work to keep it that way. The only thing that makes any community great is its people. And if its people won’t hear any voices saying that it could improve, then it will sink to mediocrity or worse. Nothing ever stays the same — things are always getting either worse or better.

Again I ask, what the hell is wrong with our pausing to examine ourselves and purging whatever is mediocre? Would that somehow hurt us?

60

Lib, these are rules. We have a set of rules that we stick to. If “Newbie X” steps out of the rules, would you expect people not to remind “Newbie X” that there are rules?
People can post unpopular opinions all they want (within reason). Just don’t be surprised if people tell them the opinion is full of shit.

People don’t get banned for voicing unpopular opinions. They get banned for being a jerk.

As Rudyard Kipling once wrote
“If you can keep your head while all around you are losing theirs, and blaming it on you”

People tend not to follow this advice. They lose their head, and start to lash out. when they lash out, they break the rules, and they get banned.