Banning? Who’s talking about banning? Is anybody out there?
*Originally posted by Libertarian *
**
Lib, sorry but you left out a crucial part of a quote: “I don’t generally spend much time in online message boards - I don’t know the etiquette or the jargon, and frankly I don’t care.”
So why should I give a damn? He doesn’t know, nor does he want to know the culture. Can you imagine walking into a Jewish Community Center or an Islamic Community Center, making derisivie comments about how low they’ve fallen from their founder’s visions, and then saying “I don’t know your culture or langugage and frankly I don’t care.”
And in his very next sentence, repeats the same anti-mod song that’s always sung by those who don’t want to or choose not to join in: “These moderators seem to - in general - have simply their online egos on their minds.”
And the fact that he’s allegedly been reading Cecil since way back when and is “a FAN of Straight Dope”. …so what? I’ve been reading Cecil for roughly as long (actually just slightly longer than whatshisname. Doesn’t make a difference and besides… C’mon Lib. I know you can recognize the fallacy of the Argument from Authority :).
And in this case, it’s a false authority, on the same level as a PhD in Geology said “I’m a doctor, I can diagnose cancer”. While most of us read and admire Cecil, that’s not the primary focus of the board. (And besides, as I said, I’ve read The Straight Dope slightly longer than him and I say we ARE living up to the ideals of Cecil.) Besides, the only person here who’s actually met Cecil is Ed Zotti (as far as I know). If he says we’re all “whithered souls” and “thin-skinned sweethearts” and “sad and pathetic”, and that we’re not living up to Cecil’s ideals, I’ll listen. But some guy who’s primary concern is that there aren’t more discussions about “aphids on pot-plants”? Nah.
I like the bulk of the ‘culture’ we have here and the parts I don’t like, I try to change from within (the recent “fundies” thread and the “why was so-and-so banned” thread, to name two). If people agree with me, things will change. If they don’t, I’ve got two choices: live with it or leave (I can live with both things, so don’t get any ideas about getting rid of me that easily :D).
The point is I’m not trying to insist that other people change to accomidate me with a “You all suck and I’m leaving” statement like whatshisname made. (“one of my favorite writers would eventually gain a following of apostles who would fail to meet standards set by the lowliest people I have ever met in my life”). If whatshisname…Arturo doesn’t like things, he has three options: Stick around and try to change them constructively, decide that this isn’t the place for him and leave, or post a petulant “More Cecil-esque than Thou” message and get ignored or flamed. He seems to have chosen option 3.
Look at the complete dearth of constructive criticism in his opus. We’re not “fighting ignorance”. We’re not “cutting edge” enough. We’re too “P.C.” Our egos are too big. :rolleyes: He said nothing remotely of interest to me.
Lib, you obviously got something out of this that I didn’t. What specific changes (nothing vague like “be less P.C.”. Specific, like “the word ‘fundie’ isn’t really nice”) do you think we should make? Reexaminiation and self-examination is always good, but if this guy’s note prompted it, we also need to examine what he wants us to change. And his letter’s sorely lacking on specifics.
Fenris
Good gravy.
Example 1: “The moderators don’t like me, because I’m not in their clique. They must all be Nazi’s because I like Diet Dr. Pepper and they don’t. This just isn’t fair.”
Example 2: “Stop whining and try to get along.”
Example 1 is “Whining”. Example 2 is a statement calling out the whining.
Which brings up Example 3: “You telling me to ‘stop whining’ is just more whining.”
Followed by Example 4: “I wasn’t whining when I told you to stop whining and now you’re just whining even more, ya big whiner.”
Which could then be followed by Examples 5 through 1,830,532: “I know you are, but what am I?”
If you want to be that person, far be it from me to drag you off your cross.
Fen,
He didn’t say anything about the culture of this specific board. He said nothing about culture at all. He said he didn’t understand the ettiquette and jargon of bulleting boards. I simply heard him saying that what he had to say was important enough that he didn’t care if it came out wrong because it needed saying.
I would liken it to walking into a Jewish Community Center and saying you don’t speak Hebrew, and you don’t care to learn it, but you’d like to ask some questions and give some input about the services. If the input isn’t welcome, then fine. There are civil ways to react to people. But taunting them, dismissing them, making an example of them isn’t one.
Well, pardon me, but sometimes some of them do. They’re not infallible. They’re just like us. He had just come out of the thread where Manhattan was saying the things I don’t even want to think about, let alone repeat, about Sultan’s grandmother. Now, you and I, we know Manny, and we know how he can fly off. But this guy didn’t know that. Stop for a moment with the self-celebration and try to look through virgin eyes for a moment. You see this, with Moderator under the name, going on, and what do you think?
Mods are just people. They have favorites just like you and I do. And they cut them slack just like you and I do. And they go to extra lengths to make a point just like you and I do. They’re not robots.
Whew boy. Do you honestly in your heart of hearts believe that Arturo’s point had anything whatsoever to do with aphids on pot-plants?
Yes, those are his options. And our options are to fester in a smug, self-righteous haze of delusion that we are something special simply because we are SDMB or else to examine ourselves from time to time and accept valid criticism like grown-ups and work to better ourselves.
Excuse me, Fenris. You know the respect I have for you. It is well documented here. And I know that it is mutual because I know that you don’t just speak empty words.
Look at what you’ve just said is of no interest to you. It doesn’t matter whether we’re fighting ignorance, which allegedly is our prime directive. It doesn’t matter whether we are cutting edge, an attribute that separates the noteworthy from the passe. It doesn’t matter whether we’re too P.C. and thus withold truth for the sake of politics. And it doesn’t matter whether our egos are too big, thus disabling our empathy one for another.
Good God, man. If these things don’t matter, then what does?
Well, you can’t change people’s hearts, but you can certainly make it tough for people to be cruel and ignorant. The first thing I think we should do is the one thing we’re refusing to do, admit that we can and should be better and decide that we will.
A very good way to start that process would be to allow a sincere, reasonable, and civil discussion of it to take place on About This Message Board. I mean, criminy, this is about this message board. Otherwise, rename the thing to something less misleading like “Technical Assistance and Bug Reports”. Forcing such discussions to take place in the Pit virtually guarantees their failure. And maybe that’s the whole point of its purpose. Who knows?
At any rate, I appreciate your willingness to probe me and to hear me out, even if you agree with nothing. I can only respect you for that.
Bingo! You go over to any long thread in GD, and 90% of the posts don’t have an original thought. They are agreeing with X or Y position already stated (I’m often reminded of a skit I saw once of a college group meeting: “I’m going to agree with the original speaker, but I’m going to say it in French.”) There is nothing wrong with that - it’s the nature of a message board. It’s not called “piling on” over in GD, why is if considered piling on in the Pit?
Bingo again. Any valid points that Arturo may have made were lost upon me the moment he informed me that my concerns are “petty”. Fuck him - who is he to tell me that? Why should I give any credence to someone who chooses, in his first interaction with me, to insult me?
Stranger at a party: Hi, I’m Sean! You look hideous in those pants!
Me: Um, thanks. I’m going to go over there now.
I’m done piling on, or me-tooing, or whatever,
Sua
You mean as of now, right? 
If it upset me that much, I would think “Boy, this place is too rough for me - I’ll go hang out somewhere else.”
The SDMB is not suited to everyone’s tastes - and there are posters here who enjoy the rest of the board but never come to the Pit because they know what it’s like.
Some people, of course, think that it is okay to go into a bar and chastise the people there for drinking. :rolleyes:
Nope. That’s not it.
Forget for the moment that there is no recourse to criticize the boards (NOTE TO JODI: That says boards, not mods) but the Pit. Let’s forget that.
It’s not a matter of walking into a bar and chastizing people for drinking.
It’s a matter of watching Cheers on TV for years, and then finally going to visit the bar yourself. When you get there, you find out that all the characters are nothing like what you expected. And so you raise the issue. What happened? This makes you very sad.
And in response, you’re booed and hissed in unison by people who are mere shadows of their own potential. They’re not lovable and interesting. They’re just drunks who tell you to get lost. And Sam takes a picture of you and puts it over the bar for all to behold as an example.
In my haste to condemn the content of Mr.Bondini’s post, I failed to ask myself: “Who is ArturoBondini and why is he saying these things about us?”
Well, he’s been a cook, mechanic, musician and editor/reporter. He has met a great variety of people, yet we fail “to meet standards set by the lowliest people I have ever met in my life.” He ought to try being a cop for a day or two.
He’s been a fan of Cecil’s for 20 years. I never heard of Cecil until a few months ago. After spending a couple of hours in the archives, I could claim the same thing.
His post followed Sultan’s banning, and he even linked to it. Mind you, he doesn’t necessarily agree with Sultan. But he can’t understand his banning. Uh huh. Check
He doesn’t understand net etiquette and he doesn’t care. Check.
He’s disappointed with the Staff reports and Cecil has lost his edge. Check.
The moderators seem to - in general - have simply their online egos on their minds. Check.
The fact is, we don’t know who Mr.Bondini is. But I’m convinced that there’s some axe grinding here.
As to the why of it, the post is nothing more than an out and out troll, and Mr.Bondini is laughing his ass off at me at this moment, because I fell for it, hook, line and sinker.
Goodbye, Mr.Bondini.
Good Lord. Yes, you must be right. Nothing is amiss here. Perhaps it never was grand at all.
Beautiful!!
I’ve been to The Bull and Finch (aka Cheers) in Boston. It does suck.
You know what I did? I went in, had a drink, decided it sucked, left and never went back. I didn’t stand up on a bar stool and announce why I thought it sucked and that the poor suckers there would never be graced with my presence again.
That would have made me, oh, I don’t know, pompous and arrogant. And I probably would have been booed and hissed at, and asked to leave.
Big surprise, huh?
Speaking of drinking …
Cheers is a fantasy, as apparently is Arturo’s dream of this place. What we have here is the Bull and Finch, the bar upon which Cheers was based. There is no Norm - and there never was one. There is no Sam - and there never was one.
Sorry if the reality doesn’t meet up with Arturo’s and your delusions. On the plus side, at least the ditzy waitress has never burden the SDMB down.
Sua
What makes me sad is watching smart, thoughtful, spunky people deteriorate into sulky, self-absorbed people who start threads such as this.
Geesh.
It’s not like we don’t have REAL problems in the world to whine about.
Like I said, you’re right. I was wrong. I only fantacized about our greatness. I can live with that. Back to Great Debates now, picayune though they be, for me. At least I will finally have gotten the old thread closed.
IAAN (I am a newbie). My only comment is that I really didn’t understand the following from the original thread:
Emphasis is mine. An example of what? Don’t post in the wrong forum? I hardly think the thread was the most egregious example of posting in the wrong forum. Perhaps ArturoBandini had exhibited something in other threads that indicated that he was a troll (I have no idea). It wasn’t clear from the one thread that he was trolling. If there was some reason that the thread was locked as an example, I sure can’t figure it out.
But he didn’t post his complaint in the Pit - he posted it in ATMB, where it didn’t belong.
Now that is just outright stupid. What do you do when you want a lawyer - call Perry Mason? You know, I was real disappointed when I found out Santa Claus wasn’t real either - but I was 5 years old at the time.
Oh really? And what are your (or his) qualifications for making that judgement? How do you know what our potential is or whether or not we’ve fulfilled it? Just because you (or he) thinks so doesn’t make it so.
And maybe I’m busting my ass trying to live up to my potential and I don’t appreciate some jack-off telling me what a loser I am.
It’s called ‘reality’. Cute fuzzy little bunnies will rip you wide open with the claws on their hind feet. Waggy-tailed dogs will bite you. And bars are full of - guess what? - people who drink. Don’t want to be disappointed? Then stay home and watch TV.
So don’t go in the fucking bar and make a fool of yourself. If you choose to do so, then accept the fact that your picture will be used for a dartboard and don’t whine about it!
I loathe pile-ons, but one of the few things I hate more is the near-constant bitching and moaning and crying and whining and carping and kvetching and bellyaching about how the Board is run and the job the mods do, the decisions they make and how they make them.
If you don’t like it, FUCKING LEAVE! It’s that easy! Vote with your feet. You are in someone else’s house, at their invitation and upon their sufferance, and NO, it is not incumbent upon you to:
A. Complain about how they throw their party;
B. Suggest how they could make their party better;
C. Reminisce about how great their parties used to be;
D. Offer unsolicited advice or criticism about any part of the party; or
D. Criticize the hosts or the employees.
Doing the above is RUDE. RUDE RUDE RUDE. For cryin’ in the night! If the Board doesn’t suit your tastes, move on!
It is exactly the same as if you watched “Cheers” for years and then went to the actual bar and stood around loudly complaining that it’s not what you expected, you don’t liiiiiike it, you want them to chaaaaaange it. You would undoubtedly be asked to leave, and rightly so. This Board, like that bar, is what it is – not what you apparently want it to be. And a lot of us – a LOT of us – really like it just as it is, and really appreciate all the work that goes in to keeping it up and running and viable – work for which no one is paid, and for which they continually take rashers of shit. Feeling this way doesn’t make us a clique; it makes us a group of people who don’t appreciate having our party continually and pooped, or people whom we have come to respect respect repeatedly second-guessed and picked-on. I mean, I get sick of it and I’m not even a mod.
ARTURO, you’re a big baby. LIB, you’re another. If you don’t like it, go start your own Board.
I’m so confused.
If someone (a newbie, not an ancient, wrinkled-up old prune poster) makes a statement that I disagree with, I should - out of respect for The Straight Dope of Yore- not express my opinion? Especially if someone else has already expressed an opinion close to mine? Is that the beef?
If someone (again, especially a newbie) expresses an unpopular opinion, then we, as a board, are supposed to --um, this is the confusing part-- not disagree?
If someone (that damned newbie again) expresses disdain for this board and it’s denizens, there are some posters who are shocked shocked when many people become defensive?
Let’s forget that this board is not one huge monolith. Let’s toss out the fact that, even in this thread about the lack of support for opposing opinions, there are quite a few opposing opinions. What is this arguement about?
Perhaps it never was. Perhaps your rose tinted glasses are obscuring your view. Perhaps now would be a good time to look forward, instead of backward. Perhaps it’s time you realized that the board is subject to the same laws that govern all things. Nothing is static. Things change, grow, evolve.
Perhaps not to your satisfaction, but that is a matter of perspective, not fact.
As in any large group, you have your supporters and detractors, Lib. I’m okay with that. Diversity is what makes this board, and for the record, I belong to neither group.
I just wish you’d put down the cross once in a while. Why do you burden yourself so? If I understood your mission, perhaps I’d be a litlle more sympathetic. But you’re all over the map.
Take a break. You’ll feel better.
BIGGIRL, there is a difference between disagreeing on any number of subjects, which the SDMB obviously tolerates – indeed, encourages – and standing around going “this place sucks.” If it sucks, leave. The end.