Said guys need to watch more cable TV news. There are more great looking, elegantly dressed, smoothly articulate Black female reporters than at any time in history.
Born in 61, and I’d agree with this. The few racist lines I heard were along the lines of, “You’re not a man until you split the black oak”. We just didn’t know any.
I’ve only heard one guy make a comment along the lines of, “I just don’t find black woman attractive,” and he is ten years younger. Maybe times have changed.
From my perspective as a guy who was in college a decade ago, I often got the impression shared by several upthread–Black girls, and to a lesser extent Indian girls, were for any number of reasons totally uninterested in white guys. I can’t speak for their reasons, since almost none of them were talking to me period, although some of the Indian girls of my acquaintance were pretty up-front about their parents expecting them to bring home nice Indian guys.
This was a matter of pretty great consternation to me personally at the time, given my ballroom dance class partner who was one hell of an Indian hottie.
Don’t know anyone in my circle of white buddies who’d admit outright to never finding non-white girls attractive.
This assumption is wrong and you should scrap it. Lots of black women are leery of dating white men. Some not necessarily out of dislike or fear, but because they can only envision themselves with a black man. Anxiety about the unknown and the assumption that only a black man will “get” certain things keeps many black women loyal to intraraciality.
There are black women who aren’t like this, but I wouldn’t be surprised if proportionally more black women have reservations about dating white men than other women do. I think history does play a role in this (fears about sexual fetishists will almost always pop up in conversations about this topic), as well as ideas about sexual prowess and virility. This prejudice keeps black women away from white men, but also importantly: I think it keeps white men away from black women.
I’ve had two relationships with white men (I’m black). In both relationships, the men would express or display certain sexual insecurities that I believe were race-related. None of my black guys have done this and I can’t image them doing it, either. Obsession about penis size is one example of what I’m talking about. My white BFs were both confident that black men were super huge, despite my assurances that this was not the case in my experience. It was like they were constantly worried that I was comparing them to black men and feeling anxious about it.
Do white men as a group have this hangup? I don’t know. But don’t think it’s unreasonable to believe that some white men may worry they won’t be able to satisfy black women and therefore, go after “easier” targets.
Subconsciously?
We have a media that is constantly throwing images of black uber-masculine stud athletes, action heroes, and muscle-bound shirtless rappers covered in tattoos and brandishing handguns at us. That’s not subconscious. It’s a conscious decision, by the white-male-dominated media, to engage in stereotyping, and a conscious decision by the audiences to accept these stereotypes.
Just one. That would allow me to believe that she did hot hold any prejudice against Asian men.
Hence all the data on spousal abuse in Asian households. Or is that actually relatively low compared other groups? These stereotypes of the oppressive patriarchal Asian household are fairly common I’ll admit but is there any data supporting this, beyond anecdotes from Asian women that refuse to date Asian men? More single-earning households in 2nd gen Asians perhaps?
One major factor could be a desire to assimilate into the majority culture. Growing up a minority you are constantly exposed to images of what an American is supposed to look like and the only Asian faces you see on TV are foreigners and comic relief. So when you have the opportunity to integrate and become a “real” American or stay in the fringe group, which looks more appealing? And what makes her so sure that while she has adopted liberal American values that her male counterparts haven’t? How would she even know?
Also also those claiming that it’s voluntary on the Black women’s part, when’s the last time you actually pursued a Black woman? Or even try to talk to one at a bar? I’m sure we’ll get a half dozen self-selected replies but I’m willing to bet the majority of men here haven’t, even those living in urban, multiethnic areas with opportunities a plenty. Compare this to how the number of you that pursued and successfully dated Asian women. Asian women actually number less than Black women, so what’s going on?
Grey area, I’m not sure what you’re after here. If you’re curious about why certain behaviors are being evidenced, then we can bandy about all sorts of theories. If you’re demanding that we justify why people behave the way they do, I don’t know what to tell you. How can a collection of women’s private thoughts on what they want in a man be anything but anectodal? And why should they care whether you approve?
This is inadequate. There are, say, 2.5 billion Asians in the world. Say 50% of them are male. Say a further 10% of them are eligible for her to date. Concluding with only one experience that 125 million Asians are not datable provides infinitesimally more information than dating none at all.
You are kidding, right?
Patriarchal Beliefs and Perceptions of Abuse
Spousal abuse: Vietnamese children’s reports of parental violence
Too much to quote. You might find the Asian & Pacific Islander Institute on Domestic Violence informative.
None of this explains the extremely common phenomenon of Japanese women in Japan marrying white men.
What are your dating heuristics, Gray area? How do you know often within the first few minutes of meeting someone if you are interested in pursuing a relationship? Presumably you have observed a lot of people, done some thinking about your own needs and values, and have integrated this thinking into your social judgment. How well, in your world, do you really have to get to know someone before you decide that he or she is not datable?
No real data but speculations on why they there are low reports, because of course the oppressive Asian man is beating his wife, it’s just that the woman takes it. Plus the study does a fine job of imposing Western norms on what is considered “healthy” married interaction on non-westerners.
More speculations. I guess everyone has a PhD in East Asians Studies to have such grasp of eastern cultural norms.
From that very same website
With of course more speculations on why the rates are lower.
Extremely common? An article written by a student (most likely male and White) is hardly evidence of anything.
This is precisely the problem. In a social setting, Asian men are almost immediately written off and not perceived as romantic potential. I’ve more or less overcome this barrier by being extra assertive and letting my interest be known. So when I do end up with a non-Asian woman, I inevitably hear something along the lines of “I thought Asians guys only want to date other Asians.” Well not the ones I know at least. I can’t speak for Black women but maybe it’s similar.
Even though spousal abuse rates are far lower than any other groups, the common perceptions still seems to be that Asian men are abusive, patriarchal pricks. At the same time wimps. Best of both worlds? And just watch movies and TV. You see images of hypermasculine Blacks. So there are a lot of Black athletes, so let’s say it’s just art imitating life. Then where are the Asian American doctors and lawyers? And we know that Asian Americans are well represented in white collar fields but if you see an Asian man in a suit he’s most likely an extra or a foreigner. Notable exception is BD Wong in Law & Order and he’s gay, whatever that means. Why can’t we see a suave Asian yuppie type ever get the girl?
The reason I would love to see some data from someplace like Brazil is because I think the disparity is in large part due to public perception in the US. Asian men/Black women are not romantic potentials.
I am ready to admit my arguments are also largely based on speculations and anecdotes but with something like this, it’s difficult to really draw upon facts.
From my lurking days and observation of former posters like (IIRC) “FeistyMongol”, I don’t think there’s going to be any satisfying you, Grey area. “Help! Help! I’m being oppressed!”
Also, from sort of personal experience: just the act of asking a woman, “you don’t think much of my manhood, do you?” means that, suddenly, she doesn’t think much of your manhood. Confidence is something self-defined, not imposed by the media, and blaming others for one’s own low self-esteem is a vicious cycle.
“Extremely common” is an extreme overstatement. While more women in Japan may be interested in dating and marrying white men than before, it is still considered going against social norms, and most families would at least raise an eyebrow.
I’ve dated both Korean guys and white guys, and I find it hard to generalize. I will say that Korean men do tend to be stuck a few decades back when it comes to ideas of gender roles. (Notice I say tend to be.) They also tend to take Korean girls for granted. In my opinion, there are quite a few Asian girls who date white guys because white guys make them feel exotic and attractive, whereas Asian guys tend to expect them to be like their mothers. (And again, I HAVE dated Korean guys who aren’t like this.)
Personally, I tend to be warier of white guys, simply because I’m never quite sure if they are attracted to me as a person or as an Asian girl.
Stereotypes of Asian men as both abusive and emasculated have already been done to death in Asian American studies. (You should read Frank Chin’s stuff.) Yes, I agree that Asian culture in general has been “gendered” by American culture to seem mostly feminine. (Hwang’s play M. Butterfly has an interesting take on this, I think.) When it comes to actual dates between individuals, I think a lot of it does depend on the people themselves (as in, Asian guys who are decent and attractive will still be able to get dates regardless of their ethnicity) but it’s hard to deny that Asian men are portrayed in a somewhat unflattering light in American pop culture.
May I ask under what demographic you fall under? I’m just curious to know what you have riding on this. It seems you obviously believe that my concerns are not worth discussing and should be undermined. It’s easy to dismiss the concerns of others when they don’t affect you.
Quite honestly I haven’t had too much trouble dating once I’ve gotten over my own mental hurdles and social expectations. But I just would rather know why those hurdles are in place to begin with. And don’t say something like “because Asian cultures are culturally passive and quiet which is very unsexy in men etc etc,” because if you come to S. Korea, you could say a lot of negative things about Koreans but “passive” or “quiet” would not be among them.
HazelNut thanks for the recommendation. I’ll have to look into this Frank Chin fellow. Never took an Asian American studies course so maybe I’m missing out on some good information.
It is a factor, actually. While you need a lot of anecdotes to create data, I know quite a few longstanding couples who don’t get the paperwork done because:
- “once we get married, our mothers will expect grandkids, so we’re not getting married until we intend to try for one”;
- in many companies, a married woman or a woman with children is simply not going to be offered jobs that involve travelling, much less travelling abroad - the same companies have no problem offering those jobs to childless single women or to men of any marital status and amount of children.
While the second one is illegal discrimination, you go and find a way to prove it.
Sorry, I dont want to be offensive, but I have lived in S. Korea.
“Passive”, “Quiet”, “Shy”, “Introverted”, “efeminant” are all among the things I would say about young Korean men. (High School through College aged)
That’s not trying to be negative, that’s just observation.
If maybe you feel I am too white or I haven’t lived in Korea long enough, I asked my Korean wife (Korean… not Korean-American) via messenger and her response was
“Yup.”
“Pretty Much.”
“I see its changining though”
So there you go. I’d say these are a very accurate description of the ‘hurdles’ you seem to be facing. Denying they are relevant or factual is not helping you. Once you accept what your cultural obstacles are, you can work on overcoming them.
My guess is that much more emphasis is placed on education early on and there is not much concern with social interaction–especially between the sexes.
Generally, Americans will have interacted with the opposite sex much more by the time they are 20 than most Koreans would have. There are social functions in school that are even designed to encourage this interaction–school dances, Homecoming, Proms, etc.
Even before teenage years, kids interact with the opposite sex at skating rinks, the movies, the mall, etc. It appears that Koreans grow up much more segregated. With the exception of vocational schools, Korean schools are not co-ed. There are valuable social lessons that Koreans are missing out on because of this.
And all of this is due to culture. Hanging out with the opposite sex, and wasting valuable study time is simply discouraged in Korea. So… Korean men starting college are sort of social infants when it comes to women. They just aren’t experienced interacting with them. So they can’t help but be shy and lack confidence.
This is all totally generalized and based solely on my observation of course.
You got that from reading a four sentence abstract?
Please. The rest of your “objections” are equally weak. Since this is a subject that you clearly feel passionate about, I suggest you go to a library that has JSTOR access and plumb the journals to find texts that are not available online.
While you’re at it, since “speculation” seems to be a problem for you, perhaps you can shed some light on what you feel would be an ideal data collection process to learn more about a private, complicated phenomenon? This is not exactly like gathering data about the weather.
Common enough to support a business importing white men for affluent, Japanese women.
Yes, and you have asked why. Whether or not you believe these reasons are justifiable is completely beside the point. They exist, and in your experience, a substantial number of people participate in this phenomenon and find this dating heuristic useful, or, at the very least, do not believe they are any worse off for having it.
What are your heuristics, Gray area? You are throwing plenty of rocks, but I would like to see what your house is made out of. Do you date women of, say, any weight?
Then perhaps you should not be so quick to dismiss the same from others, hm?
And for heaven’s sake, the data on Brazilian interracial marriage is out there. Just search for it. This is a start, but you will need JSTOR.
An extreme overstatement? Maybe, but only barely. This might be informative. These data are gathered among “US Raised” Asian immigrants. The numbers are pretty high. And sure enough, when both partners are raised in the US, the likelihood of interracial marriage is higher, except for Japanese women, who have a much higher intermarriage baseline already.
Last but not least, Asian men might not be doing as badly as we think.
I’ve also head this helps explain the schoolgirl theme in Japanese porn. In Japan, supposedly, boys and girls study together up until they’re in middle school, after which they go to same-sex schools. Then comes years of soul-crushing study and then work as a sarariman, and when a guy does finally have time to turn to dating pursuits, he has no idea what to do and finds women frankly threatening. So the pornmeisters cater to his hangups by presenting the last age at which he remembers interating with females when they weren’t a threat–when they were schoolgirls.
Don’t ask me about the tentacles, though.
As I continued the conversation via messenger with my wife, she added that she would have no problem dating a Korean guy, but they all considered her too ugly and too fat. She doesn’t seem to appeal to their standards, it seems. She says she has always been treated by Korean men as if she is too ugly.
She says she is still fat by Korean standards, but in America and Europe, they act like she is beautiful and treat her differently. She has problems finding clothes and shoes that even fit her in Korea.
I believe that among Indian-American girls, at least, there is a negative stereotype of Indian-American and Indian boys. The “white guys know how to treat a girl” factor is definitely there.
However, I think it’s important not to discount something important here. The girls take their own fathers and uncles as examples of what the men of their own race are like as husbands, which might ultimately lead them to an incorrect conclusion, but it’s not at all baffling.
The prefect complement to the idea that (white) American guys are more modern when it comes to women’s roles are, of course, American men going abroad to find more ‘traditional’ wives.
While nobody likes to think their tastes are shaped by the popular media, I do think there’s something to the lack of Asian male (John Cho aside) and black female sex symbols. Sure there quite a few examples of the latter– Beyoncé , Halle Berry Tyra Banks – but it’s hard not to notice how little their hair, features, even skin tone stray from those of their Caucasian counterparts.
