Exactly right. In my experience, a lot of people try to deny that black women and Asian men are at a disadvantage. On more than one occasion for example, I’ve heard people say, “What you mean? Asian men are every bit as popular as white and black men!” It’s as though people don’t want to admit the truth, obvious though it may be.
In my conversations with Asian men and black women though, I’ve found that both groups are acutely aware that they’re at a dating disadvantage. Heck, all you have to do is visit some of these singles dating websites. If the site allows people to specify racial preferences, you’ll find that white men and women are in nearly universal demand. There’s also a strong preference for black men and Asian women. But Asian males and black females? Not nearly as much.
I remember a couple of conversations in which people were asked to name an Asian male sex symbol. In both cases, the very first names raised were Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee, neither of which are good examples. Jackie Chan, after all, is known primarily as a martial arts clown. As for Bruce Lee? His posters tended to adorn the walls of teenaged boys rather than girls, and besides, he’s been dead for more than 30 years!
Are times changing? Perhaps, but slowly. You do have Jet Li and Chow Yut Fat representing the Asian males, but neither one has attained heartthrob or sexy symbol status. On the black side, you have the likes of Halle Berry and Tyra Banks-- but as Cat Fight correctly pointed out, their features look more like an obvious blend of black and Caucasian.
I’ve only known one black woman who thought anywhere near along those lines, and for her it was related to her myriad racial identity issues. When she worked through some of those, she got over her issues with interracial relationships as well. The rest didn’t give a damn. The percentage of white and asian guys who would not get involved with a black woman is much higher and a more relevant factor.
Disclaimer: I grew up in, went to school in, and now live in areas that were majority white.
Based on my conversations with black women, I would agree with that wholeheartedly.
There seems to be a tendency for people to assume that if black ladies and Asian gents have a hard time dating, it must be because they have no attraction to people outside their race. Again, based on my conversations with people from both groups, I think that’s completely false. So why do people often assume that whatever barriers exist must be due to racial hangups on the parts of AMs and BFs?
Quite simply, I think it’s because we don’t want to admit that they playing field is uneven. A pretty girls might tell herself, “Oh, it’s not about looks. If these other women would just carry themselves better, they could get as many dates as I would.” In the same way, when we belong to a demographic groups that’s in relative demand, we are loathe to admit that we have a racial advantage. We don’t want to admit that the stereotypes work in our favor and to the disadvantage of others.
My wife is Chinese and experienced the same thing while growing up in China. She never had a boyfriend because she was considered fat and ugly (though she was very focused on school and work) and after marring me, many of her friends were surprised that she was “pretty enough” to get a white guy like me.
As a counterpoint, I haven’t ever “dated” a white girl. I have dated Chinese, Hawaiian, African American and Arabic girls, though. I find white women attractive, I just never was anything beyond friends with one. Unless you count that one white girl in second grade. I don’t because I can’t remember her name.
They are obviously completely out of their mind. It would appear that the Korean female ideal would make Kate Moss look like Roseanne Barr.
Okay, that was probably a bit beyond the pale for me, as my next point will be that I don’t need to apologize to anyone for my preferences (and neither do Korean men). Why is it okay for me to be into cute Caucasian brunettes and nobody is going to question that, but the minute I express my lack of interest in black females all of a sudden I’m racist?
As a white male I’m simply not into them at all, mmkay? Yeah if the right one were to come along etc. etc. maybe I’d change my mind. And it is simply not purely a physical thing either, as there seems to be even fewer black females (even as a % of their population) that are into my particular interests/philosophies than there are white females.
“For some reason, as long as I can remember, I’ve always been into Asian chicks,” Furukawa said. “I don’t know what it is about them, but they just totally do it for me.”
But to get decent numbers, you’d have to ask the corollary: who has dated Asian guys or black women (or had crushes on them)? Otherwise you won’t have a good idea of the proportions.
Here in Taiwan, I have heard firsthand accounts of how guys here are distinctly uncomfortable with their women exuding any kind of overt sexuality. Early in our relationship, I scored major points with the woman who’s now my wife, in this way: she and I were window shopping and she pointed out a hot dress suitable for a tango. She asked me what I’d think if my girlfriend wore something like that, and (not thinking much) said, eh, all the better for the other guys to see what they’re missing. Later on, she told me that her (Taiwanese) boyfriend of the time had a major hangup about her dressing in a way that showed off her very enviable figure–every time she wore something tight or revealing, he would put her down and say that people on the street were “laughing” at her.
Folks, any thread that asks, “Have you ever had a thing for black women/Asian men?” or “Would you date a black woman/Asian man, and if not, why?” is bound to fail. It’s not hard to see why.
People don’t want to admit that they would rule someone out – or even be negatively disposed toward someone – on the basis of race. If you ask which dopers would date a black woman, then by and large, only the ones who are open to dating them would respond. Most of the others would choose to keep quiet. Even if they do respond, they are likely to be cagey about the reasons for their reticence.
John DiFool said that black women just don’t do it for him, and expressed disappointment that people would think he’s being racist. I’m sure that he’s far from alone in this regard. It’s a natural fear that will keep people from responding openly and honestly.
Heck, a lot of us probably wouldn’t want to admit the extent of our racial preferences, even amongst ourselves. I suspect that a lot of us would say that we’re open to dating any race, but only in the sense that we might consider dating a black, Asian, arab, or Latino. This doesn’t mean that we would be likely to do so, even if push were to come to shove.
Insert obligatory joke about my white wife killing me.
While looking at colleges, one of my girls made a comment from which I took it that she would be much less likely to date an Asian guy. So, I asked her, “Everyone says white girls won’t date Asian guys. Why is that? Is it height?” (My daughter is only 5’ 3", but I am well aware of the saying “girls marry their dads, boys their moms”. I am shrinkage-with-age shy 6’ 2".)
Her answer surprised me: “No, I think it is the facial hair. It seems to matter that you look like you could grow a beard if you wanted to.” (I am very not hairy, but I can grow a beard.)
Grey area, perhaps your greater assertiveness implies a confidence that enables you to overcome a hurdle along these lines?
That anecdote brings up a related fact. Different ethnic groups have different behaviors that indicate interest. For example, some groups use direct eye contact to indicate honesty, while others use it as an affront. I stated earlier that I never met a black woman whom I thought would have been interested in me, if I were single, whereas I certainly did white women. Might I have been completely misreading the former, based on my own cultural background?
Culture and class are very important! I dated a black girl in college (in the early 1980s), and there was no culture clash because we essentially had the same culture, aspirations, economic background, etc. Also, one of the black girls I had a crush on in high school (late 1970s) was a step above me in the class structure – I was just one generation removed from East Tennessee farmers (my family had some, but not much money, no one had completed college, most had not even gone to college at all), while her parents had professional backgrounds (her dad was an engineer, his dad had been a professor at a "historically black college). I enjoyed talking to her, although I never asked her out, and I liked her dad a lot, too.
It’s a two way street, though, and it’s irks me that it’s constantly assumed that the minority group is always sitting around pining away for the unrequited affections of whites when it’s really not so simple. My experiences tell me that a large number of black women have their eyes fixed on a black knight in shining armour and therefore, are not going out of their way to attract white men and others.
You note that you’ve spent a lot of your life in majority white environments. That’s an important disclaimer! I grew up in integrated schools where blacks and whites were close to equal in number, I’ve lived in urban areas for most of my life, and I frequent a predominately female A-A message board where these topics come up all the time. And even though I’ve dated white men in the past, like HazelNut, I’m aware that even I have some wariness that keeps me from being a lot less than 100% colorblind with respect to dating. My experiences tell me that black women living in mixed or predom black environments, have a strong preference towards black men which accounts for a lot of what we see.
It makes sense that our experiences differ, since black women living in predominately white environments will probably be less likely to be waiting for a “black knight” because either A) there are fewer black men to compete after so they can’t afford to be racially restrictive and B) these people are more likely to step outside the black comfort zone anyway (otherwise, they wouldn’t be living in predom white environments). Most black women don’t live in predom white areas, though.
I think there is some social programming going on that makes black men seem hypermasculine, strong, sexual, and therefore, desirable to both white and black women. White men, relative to the mandigo warrior stereotype, come off looking as hypomasculine, weak, assexual (or deviantly sexual) and geeky…much like Asian men do except to a lesser degree. So when it comes to black women, I do think white men suffer a disadvantage that black men–who often revel in the mandigo stereotype–just do not.
That said, I don’t think the disparities only have to do with black women rejecting or overlooking white men. White men have anti-black biases just the same. But glossing over the views of black women because it makes “more sense” to just assume that they want to be with white men and are being denied that chance is wrong and unfair.
Well, of course numbers are going to be high among immigrants. A lot of it is simply numbers - statistically speaking, Asian Americans are much more likely to marry outside of their race because the number of people they meet that are inside their race is going to be relatively small. I was talking about women living in Japan, who would, for the most part, have to go out of their way to marry a white guy over a Japanese guy.
Bear_Nenno, tell your wife I sympathize. I also feel the same way - I just came back to Korea after being in the US for the past two years, and right away I felt unattractive and fat. (In the US I’m a size 2-4.) I know objectively that I’m not, but that’s how Korea makes me feel.
I agree there’s a difference between rejecting someone for racist reasons and rejecting them because of personal preferences. Being the humanities major that I am, however, I can’t help wondering if our personal preferences aren’t shaped in some way by the ideas of race our society feeds us.
