Asian men and Black women: Left behind in the interracial dating game (?)

Great Debates
61

Interesting thread…interesting enough for me to register and post :). Here are my thoughts as a Chinese-American individual on the whole matter. The Interracial aspect is really just a by product of racial preconceptions in U.S. society. The U.S. has taken great strides over the past 100 years to get rid of institutional racism but social racism is still a big part of American culture. I’d say that the U.S. is still very much a racial hierarchy. It’s a social pyramid with whites on top everyone else on the bottom according to your perceived racially defined role. The more attractive or wealthier you are the more you can move up to the top and become “white” according to society.

A large part of the attitudes and stereotypes regarding asians goes back to all the conflicts the U.S. has fought with various asian nations over the years. These wars have almost always been characteristically bitter with high casualties. With the exception of the U.S. victory over Japan in WW2 all of the other conflicts ended up in uncertain outcomes. In each of the wars the asian population was always slurred with terms such as gook, nip, chink, etc… basically outright dehumanization along with offensive caricatures.

There are hundreds of thousands of U.S. veterans from these wars and they raise their kids with the popular idea that asians and particularly asian men are brutal, evil, etc… and it carries into the next generation. Not all former veterans do this but it’s occurred enough to carry over into popular media in the U.S. Just look at the typical war movie during those different eras. On the other hand there is a certain “exotic” quality to Asia for the U.S…the locale, food, women, etc… which is played up as well. This all fits into the typical yellow peril stereotype. Exotic lustful yellow women, evil yellow man. As with any military conflict one of the base ideas is to humiliate or emasculate your “enemy” and dominate the women. It’s the most primitive instinct and all these stereotypes have their roots in this basic idea.

Throughout history there’s always been a fascination with the “enemy” and unfortunately asian males have been popularly demonized as such in popular U.S. culture. Many of the racial stereotypes are often contradictory or based on the usual blood libel that have been used to historically tarnish other ethnic groups.
This leaves asian-americans in the uncomfortable position of being born and raised as American as apple pie yet shouldering the burden on preconceived notions behind race. All the stereotypes have been stated already so I won’t repeat them but they are fairly typical.

I’ve pretty much come to terms that this is how the U.S. is. It’s a competitive racist country with its own ideas of where I am supposed to “fit” in that I don’t agree with. I suppose i’m lucky in that i’m surrounded with open minded friends of various nationalities and cultures where I don’t have to deal with most of this. Even though i’m living abroad it is sad to see and hear people still have these notions about Asians and Asian-Americans but i’m not surprised.

62

I’m 21, so it’d be within a year or two of that.

I know you weren’t responding to me, but I think this is a good time to clarify what I said earlier: I was referring to white guys who would never even consider a black girl. That’s racist. OTOH, if you simply haven’t met one who turns you on, that’s not your fault. JMHO. On the gripping hand:

QFT.

BTW, excellent post, Deftones. I think you’re spot on.

63

The U.S. never fought the chinks. Our relationship with them wasn’t really related to war, it was through the Chinese immigrants who came in the 1800s to California.

64

African men in Africa can also seem quite effeminate to Americans- most of the men I knew in Cameroon were a bit swishy in their body language.

But nobody thinks black men are effeminate. Furthermore, I’m pretty sure most Asian-Americans are not recent immigrants but lived in America for generations, presumably taking on American personality traits.

65

Actually, the U.S. very definitely has fought Chinese (and let’s leave the slurs out of this, even for ironic emphasis), on two occasions: during the Boxer Rebellion and then during the Korean War.

I would tend to agree that most of the negative stereotypes that white America imposes on Asians cannot be defined as simply a reaction to wars. U.S. mistreatment of Chinese predated the Boxer uprising by decades and our mistreatment of and fear of Japanese predated WWII by decades. Similarly, the (South) Koreans and the (South) Vietnamese (who are the only ones who actually made it across the Pacific in any numbers) were seen more as victims than as aggressors when associated with any conflict.

Still, however, we certainly should be aware that we have been at war with Chinese forces on a couple of occasions.

66

Let me clarify my point a bit. It’s true that not all negative stereotypes have their origins in previous military conflicts but they certainly magnified existing racial beliefs. You can trace the modern form of prejudice against asians all the way back to the 18th century when European imperialism was really beginning its “golden age” of conquest. It roughly coincides with the rise of modern scientific theories which unfortunately also marked the time when various pseudo-scientific theories behind race were also becoming en vogue. There was a sense of preordained “manifest destiny” in many nations at the time combining ethno-nationalism, ethnic superiority, and religious zealotry. Ironically, the U.S. was founded to deviate away from those attributes.

Yellow peril is an old concept by itself though. There are quite a few authors who have examined how colonialism has molded race relations. Edward Said is one notable author but there are other modern sociologists who have taken in depth looks at what makes “multicultural” western societies tick and how they interact with non-western nations.

Also, it’s true Vietnamese and Hmong refugees and the like might be considered victims but they are certainly not considered as such in mainstream U.S. society. Asians are categorized with the same broad brush strokes as all the other ethnic groups. Just read about all the racial issues Hmong have had in places like Wisconsin and Minnesota. Same thing with the South Koreans, they were more or less considered outsiders in even many of the ethnic neighborhoods. I have Cambodian friends in Los Angeles who immigrated in the '70s and were placed right smack dab in South Central LA…in the projects and were expected to somehow successfully assimilate.

The current issues the U.S. has with China can be regarded as a proxy conflict. A lot of the tension with China directly mirrors the cold war.

67

I have personally never met any 3rd+ generation Asian-Americans who come from beyond the 1960’s wave of immigrants. I think they’re pretty rare when compared to later immigrant waves. You have to remember the “Chinese exclusion act” and various laws prohibiting ethnic immigration from asian nations limited the numbers greatly. A lot of Japanese immigrants from the early 20th century ended up in countries like Brazil where they became a highly successful immigrant minority.

I think Hawaii is the only state you would find the highest concentration of such descendants but only because of its unique history and geography.

68

I agree. Most Asian Americans I’ve met are 2nd or 3rd generation, and their cultural roots are still strong. I’d even go so far as to say that 3rd generation Asian Americans are pretty scarce. I’ve never met a 4th or beyond. (I’m sure they exist, but they seem to be rare.)

There were a lot of Chinese immigrants here before the exclusion act, but they were mostly men, and after the act passed they ended up forming bachelor communities and keeping to themselves, as they could no longer bring over wives from China.

69

Ok, maybe I was being a bit too focused on my generation in my particular corner of California.

70

A lot of them wound up going back to China.

71

The African men I’ve met–and work with daily seem very effeminate and weak. Most people who have worked with them agree.

But most Americans don’t know any Africans. Most Americans will travel to Asian countries for business and have much interaction with Asian culture. Africa… not so much. And since black Americans are nothing like black Africans, why would the swishy mannerisms of Africans have anything to do with the ultramasculine view of black Americans?

72

I was responding to the post about South Koreans being shy, etc. I was trying to express that there is nothing inherently feminine about Asians, just as there is nothing inherently ultra-masculine about black people.

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Asian men are usually shorter than many white women, which is a hindrance in finding a partner.

As for white men marrying black women, there are social barriers in the US and Europe but certainly not among middle and lower classes in Brazil.

I wonder about South Africa ?

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But I never said that they were. Stereotypical racial qualities are not inherent in any person. However, those stereotypes will be reinforced everytime a person witnesses it. South Korea was relevant because the OP is South Korean, I have lived in South Korea, and if asked to describe certain traits of the men in that culture, I would use those adjectives dispite his claim to the contrary. It’s like if someone said, “If you’ve ever been to France, you might have some negative things to say about them but Rude and Malodorous wouldn’t be it.”
That’s a silly statemtent because many Americans who have lived there would say that. This doesn’t mean every French man is inherently a smelly, rude, asshole. But it would help understand why people in America have that perception.

In a thread exploring the hurdles that specific cultures or races may face in the interracial dating pool, it would be disingenuous to ignore the role that stereotypes play–or to outright pretend that they don’t exist.

I never claimed that all Asians are inherently shy and effiminate. I was saying that the perception of Asians being inherently shy is caused by and reinforced by observing and interacting with Japanese and South Korean men. Whether it is through television, 2nd hand stories, or personal experience, there is a lot of American exposure to those cultures. Hell, there are American military bases blanketing the Korean penninsula, and a couple in Japan as well. Pleanty of first hand experience there, and even more soldiers coming back with stories to answer all the “what are they like!?” questions…

So a large majority of Asians that Americans interact with are shy. So it’s no wonder why such a stigma plaques all Asians. That’s how stereotypes come to be, afterall.

Now… my point about your African men example, is that the culture or mannerisms of some little known group to which hardly anyone is ever exposed to–and certainly not on a daily basis–wouldn’t have the tiniest effect on the perception of others sharing their phenotype.

Nobody ever has any interaction with Africans. Hardly anyone goes there on business, vacation, etc… and almost nobody goes there in the military save maybe the north east of it. So, some super-feminine African tribe there would have no impact whatsoever on the overall view of black men elsewhere. Percentage wise, black Americans make up the vast majority of black men that Americans are exposed to. Not to mention the fact that even if Africa became the next hottest tourist attraction, the perception of black American males would not be effected one single bit by the perception of black Africans. So your statement was beyond irrelevant.
Black men were bred in this country for their strength. All of our major sports are dominated by black men. No amount of girly tribes anywhere is going to change the consensus and overall subconcious opinion of black man=masculine man.

So my point is that nobody is inherently anything. An Asian could be super tall with a huge cock… but it’s not going to change anything until that becomes the majority or much, much more common. In fact, I believe there are some very tall, athletic Asians playing professional sports in America right now. But not enough to change the stereotype.

75

Black females are masculine? The only black females in popular culture are white? What the hell?

It’s like I walked into some bizzaro world of "look through the world in the eyes of whites’. Jeez, I know there is a large disparity to what’s ‘black popular culture’ and ‘white popular culture’, but I have no idea where you guys are getting your daily ‘black exposure’.

My exposure to black females in popular culture has always been through many avenues of media: music, tv, movies, magazines, etc… and they have always given me black females that are: smart, strong-willed, ultra-feminine and ultra-sexualized.

I have no idea where you guys are getting your weird black stereotypes.

For an example; I would have to say that black popular black culture is dominated by music, but when I say ‘black music’ I’m not talking about “Gangsta rap”. That is made and produced for the sole consumption of whites. I’m talking about real black music for ordinary blacks like R&B/soul/pop.

Off the top of my head I can think of hundreds of these black women. Some are sexy, some are good role models, some have messages, and so on… These popular black female singer/songwriters come in all favours and colours.

kelis, Ashanti, India Arie, Keyshia Cole, Mary J. Blige, Amerie, Syleena Johnson, Tweet, Sunshine anderson, Lauryn Hill, Jonell, Eve, Rihanna, Cassie, Ciara, Destiny’s Child (3 of them), Tiffany Evans, Monica, Heather Headley, Tamia, Mya, Vivian Green, Jill Scott, Erykah Badu, Fabolous, Leona Lewis, Mariah Carey, Xscape, etc…

I just scratched the surface of popular black female singers, I haven’t gone into movie or tv stars.

And where do you get the idea that black men are all ultra-masculine? I can also give you an equally long list of effeminate black male R&B/soul/pop singers like chris brown, usher, etc… (Obama is the perfect example of an effeminate black male metrosexual)

I think the key isn’t that these people are not “out there”. they’re there. They have been for the last 20 years. It’s just that white America has a warped view of blacks, in general. They also live in a world separate from blacks; this probably feeds the stereotyping and misconceptions most whites have.

76

But is there any proof that women (of any ethnicity) seek out the ‘manliest’ men they can find?

77

Since you’re really pushing “shy, effeminate” thing, let me put in a word. I’ve lived in quite a few countries and generally (not specifically young men) Koreans are easily the most confrontation people I’ve encountered. People fight with strangers over anything and everything. Not surprising since Koreans are blunt. A friend will tell you “that outlook makes you look fat,” or “that’s a funny looking haircut,” without hesitation. It’s not out of anything like malice, but just that there is little mincing of words. I mean how many other countries get to see a fist fight at a national assembly meeting? This is what I meant when I said Koreans are far from “shy” or “passive”.
I doubt you got experience much of it because you’re an American soldier and most GIs just stick to their own and live in their very insular “little America” army bases. I have a good friend who was stationed here too (Camp Humphrey’s) and they only seem to leave the base for a drink at “the Ville” (the area surrounding the base) that caters specifically to Americans.
I will say that Korean men are more fashion conscious than Americans which may seem effeminate to an American. Especially to ones with preconceived notions of how Asians are, confirmation bias and all that.

78

I agree with most of what you said but I don’t think the issue is black or white. I believe America’s system of identifying “race” has split the country politically and socially with these invisible boundaries. Even though segregation is no longer there as an institution it’s practiced voluntarily by all groups socially in the U.S. Just go look at a crowded cafeteria in your average workplace, school, or whatever and notice who sits with who. There’s almost an unspoken rule about race in the U.S.

Race is really America’s Achille’s heel.

79

I hope you’re not implying that this problem is somehow exclusive to Americans. Have you ever heard Mexicans talk about Guatemalans? Ever heard the Japanese talk about the Chinese? Do you have any idea how many people are actually being killed - not segregated, but killed - because of their race, in various parts of the world as we speak? This is not an American problem.

80

I don’t believe anyone is implying it’s a uniquely American problem but the instances you’re mentioning are more issues of nationalism rather than race. America is unique in the sense that American citizens are further divided and categorized into broadly defined socio-political racial subgroups. It’s a form of balkanization and that tends not to historically end well.