Well, I personally am of the opinion that the more people talk about it, the more they make an issue out of it, the more they have campaigns and committees and forums and coalitions and political organizations around it, the more it’s going to remain a polarizing, divisive thorn in America’s side.
I doubt that they do. I didn’t suggest the masculine=more desirable thing. Someone else suggested it, and Grey Area said “well that doesn’t make sense, because Koreans aren’t shy, they’re manly”. I was just saying that he should give that theory more consideration, because in fact there is a perception of Asians and Koreans in general that is consistant with that theory.
It’s not my theory. I’m just providing a data point. In fact, now that you mention it, I would say that Korean women in Korea prefer a pretty boy which would seem to encourage and reinforce that stlye behavior.
I am not pushing anything. You stated that no person who has experienced Korea would possibly call the men there shy and effeminate. I’m just telling you that pleanty of Americans who lived there would. Even I have used those terms when describing KATUSAs and Korean men in general. It doesn’t mean for a second that I believe this is inherent in all Asian or even all Koreans. But I think it is germane to your discussion. If people are telling you that there is this perception, you are doing yourself a disservice by brushing it to the side and dismissing it as “oh… well people who say that must not have been to Korea”, “nobody really believes that, it must be something else” or “You’re a soldier, so you never left the base or your drinky clubs”.
Most do, I would agree. And the fact that I traveled all over that country, learned the language, and left married would suggest I explored a little bit more than most.
Speaking of GIs, and sticking to themselves, you also have to understand that the majority of Koreans whom soldiers interact with daily are KATUSAs. Now… I have a lot of KATUSA friends and I have a great deal of respect for them. But these are some of the sissiest guys your country could cough up. I’m sure if we mingled more with the ROK Army guys, we’d see a much different picture.
All of it is confirmation bias, by the way. There is no denying that. Take France. I have been there but I didn’t meet a single smelly asshole. So, of course, I never went home and shared any good French stories (except all the damn gypsies, what’s up with that??). Since I told no story, I didn’t add anything significant to anyone’s perception of the French. Had I met one smelly asshole or if I was treated rudely and later told that story it would add to people’s perception. Strange how that works. Only the existing perception is reinforced.
You’re making a chicken or the egg type of argument. Racism doesn’t exist just because people talk about it. These deep social divisions didn’t just sprout up overnight because some collection of activists or talk shows kept on about it. It’s always been an issue in America and I believe it’s subconsciously encouraged in a sense. Just look at how popular media and commercial marketing encourages racial stereotyping. Pay attention to how racial relationships are played in U.S. society.
At various times throughout U.S. history the pressure valve has been slightly released through various pieces of civil rights legislation but it’s never completely changed the existing attitudes.
Having very good friends whose parents came from Asia, I have noticed one other thing that contirbutes to the Asian guy problem. A lot of the Korean guys I know have had extreem pressure since they were young to marry a nice Korean girl. Often the parents intentionally broke up the relationships, with some evil passive/agressive shit, if the guy was getting too serious with a girl who wasn’t Korean. They were given daily lectures on the importance of continuing the legacy.
The girls never had anywhere near the pressure from parents to date Korean. It was more of a “the quicker you can get married and have grandkids with anybody breathing, the better” thing. I guess honestly the parents woudn’t have been happy about their daughter with a black guy for whaever reasons, but anything else was good.
Here’s an interesting cultural difference. A traditional meme in Western racism has always been “But would you let them marry your daughter?” In South Asian society, people are less worried about what kind of person the daughter marries (so long as he relieves them of the financial burden of having a daughter) than what kind of person that the son marries. My guess is that in large part, the reason is that, traditionally, a daughter in law moves in with you; whereas a son in law doesn’t.
I notice that my brother in law comes under the same kind of pressure. My wife and my sister in law don’t–in fact, they kind of contribute to the pile-on on my brother-in-law. Not so much to date a Taiwanese girl, as that’s never been a worry about him, but to be sure he finds a girl he can be serious with and marry the sooner the better. My wife and my sister in law–eh, let 'em do what they want.
I think this is true. Of all the places I’ve visited and lived, I’ve never felt more conscious of my race than in the US (Central PA). This isn’t because there aren’t that many Asians there (in Trinidad my sister and I were the only Asians in my school.) It seemed like the majority, or at least too many of interactions with the people there inevitable included some sort of patronizing or condescending reference to my race by some mention of kung fu, penis size, Asian chicks they’ve hooked up with or what have you. Almost like there’s an implicit desire to put me in “my place”. Everywhere else, I felt like I was a treated like a person but there I was always an Asian.
This is of course anecdotal so take it as you will.
If you think that’s unique to America, you clearly haven’t been outside the country much.
MrDibble, South African
I’ve already addressed this point. By the way, I don’t even live in the U.S. currently. I have traveled a great deal around South America, SE/NE Asia, as well as a few countries within Europe. I am well aware of how different cultures/nations perceive race. Some places are certainly much better (South American region) and some places (like South Africa) are historically worse. However, the topic is mostly about how interracial relationships are perceived in the U.S.
Just because some places are worse doesn’t mean the U.S. has to set the bar low to match that scale. I never understood this justification in any argument.
I have noticed it too I wouldn’t call it hatred but there is definitely a degree of contempt and disrespect. Like I said a lot of it originates from what I mentioned before. It’s not really just asians that get this though. Plenty of other minorities do too (as well as stereotyping other U.S. minorities) with their own particular stereotypes. It’s just the way race and social relations have been totally distorted in the U.S.
The U.S. has become a bunch of separate ethnic identities holding one citizenship trying to score points against one another. In my opinion it’s a dead end for any society and it breeds an enormous amount of distrust and national weakness.
I have noticed among my female black friends that their brothers date white women and nobody cares, but when I pointed out a good looking white guy who I knew wasn’t married, they’d say “Oh, no, my mama would die.”
Not super-relevant, but kind of amusing. In high school, one of my friend’s cousins was getting married to a white guy. I asked her if her black family minded. She smiled and said, “They all say: No, no, he’s not white. He’s Irish.”
So, not unique to America, then.
It’s certainly unique for its minority population size and the scale in which various ethnic identities are divided up in the population.
The only comparable country would be Brazil but their population is far less segregated along racial lines. It’s more about classism there. Australia has similar racial issues but their non-white immigrant population is very recent compared with the U.S. so an adequate comparison can’t be drawn. South Africa’s racial issues are mostly between black and whites.
Anyways, you’re arguing semantics.
How about India and its caste system?
Ed
That’s more class than race. Again, I don’t see how it’s relevant to this discussion. Just because some countries are better or worse doesn’t excuse the situation in the U.S. That’s a very simple backhanded justification.
How about Koreans and other minorities in Japan? What about formal anti-ethnic Chinese government policies Malaysia and in Indonesia?
I’ll be interested to see how you hand-wave these away.
ETA: BTW, ethnic Chinese make up something like a quarter of Malaysia’s population and 3-5% of Indonesia’s, with much higher concentrations in certain cities.
That’s very mistaken. I should know, I’m neither.
No, I’m taking issue with American exceptionalism. There’s nothing unique about the US racial situation, especially when it comes to interacial relationships, that’s all I’m saying.
Ah, I see where this is headed now. “They do that over there so we shouldn’t feel too bad when we do this here, ok.” Using this logic allows justification for doing anything.
There is a difference between nationalism, racism, and classism. Much of the quarrel between asians is about nationalism rather than anything to do with race. Hardly anyone considers Asians a different “race” from one another unless they are truly some fringe group with accompanying beliefs. Ethno nationalism is a big part of the culture though…if you are Chinese you will be considered a part of China in a few of those nations. Period. That’s where the conflict comes from.
The difference is in the U.S. it doesn’t matter where you’re from…if you have the superficial racial characteristics you’re lumped into one big racial category regardless.
More importantly, the gender imbalance of interracial dating makes it clear that there are other forces at work than simple prejudice.