Such as?
Fascinating thread.
I’m an Asian-American male, and I guess contrary to the trend, the majority of my girlfriends/flings have actually been white, with a couple of fella yellas and one black girl. I guess it may be because I was raised in a mostly white neighborhood and went to mostly white schools, but I never felt any particularly weird vibes from my own interracial dating.
It was only when I went to university that I realized that a lot of people had a ton of weird hang-ups about dating outside their race. My Indian-American friend getting engaged to a white guy caused a massive stir within her family, and it’s still a bit sensitive years later. Also, I noticed that a lot of Asian-American guys I met in uni did seem a lot more comfortable around other Asians than with blacks or whites. It was not unfriendliness so much as a certain formality or distance, which would tend to stifle romantic possibility. Obviously, there were many exceptions, too, but the trend was quite clear to me. Asian-American girls don’t seem to have as big of a problem, perhaps because it’s the guys who tend to do a lot of the chasing and white guys don’t seem to have any problem at all chasing Asian girls.
Don’t know much about the black situation, other than my own case. It was probably the only time I did dwell on a girlfriend’s race, because I know my father would certainly not approve if he knew (he’s a bit racist). It didn’t stop me from dating her (she was such a lovely person), but the trouble that engagement/marriage would bring was certainly in the back of my mind. As for her, I never sensed that she felt weird dating me. She’d never been with a white guy, but she’d been with pretty much every other minority, and she really did not have much to say about race differences. She tended to date weird, slightly geeky guys (that’s me!), no matter what color their skin was.
Your thoughts on an experience from my youth, then.
I have had two separate relationships with black women, both solicited by the women, one through a mutual male friend (black), the other face to face. Both women were from predom black milieus.
Neither relationship lasted long enough to explore long term plans and intentions, not from any lack of shared interests or personal rapport but rather a perception of me being wrung dry in a single minded way. Intimacy seemed to be a marathon thing with both, to the point of physical exhaustion on my part. I have a mesomorphic build, was in good shape and have an ample number of samples of other races from which to make comparison.
Do you think these women were seeking to prove/disprove the Mandingo thing or maybe trying to belittle the men in their community? The mutual friend said she NEVER dated black men.
What?
I’m not excusing anything. I’m always in favor of anything we can do to make the U.S. a better place. The only thing I take issue with is your statement that the U.S.'s problems in this area are unique.
I don’t get your distinction here between class and race. As far as I understand it, in India you are born into a particular caste, you can never change caste, and that some castes are discriminated against. Doesn’t that sound familiar?
Ed
No it’s not familiar. Indians aren’t a separate “race” people can and do reinvent themselves. There was a movement awhile back where lower caste indians decided to convert en masse to buddhism to escape the caste. It’s possible to remove yourself from that categorization by religion or wealth it’s not like race where attributes are set in stone by some people in society.
Anyways, I feel this whole argument is like a dog chasing its tail…around and around. Plenty of justification little actual thought. I’m out. It’s been interesting.
I noticed this thread last week, but I initially decided not to participate–or even lurk–due to my belief that we in this country–even we on the SDMB–refuse to speak honestly about race and racism and how we’re influenced by them, but what the hell, curiosity got the best of me, and I came in to say this:
I’m glad I’m not the only one who’s had this thought whenever I’ve heard that “I’m just not attracted to [“X” racial group]” bullshit. And, from where I stand, it is most definitely bullshit. (Sorry to those of you who bemoan that people might at least wonder whether you’re racist or not if you say something like this, but, really, what else are people to think when that’s all you give them?) Of course, since I’m a black dude, there aren’t too many whites who’ve admitted as much to my face, but I have met a few here and there, and I’ve certainly heard it second-hand. I’ve heard it from other blacks, too, but very rarely (my black friends, who actually have some sense, tend to be pretty open-minded WRT interracial relationships, both platonic and romantic–with only some concerns that I would deem to be quite reasonable given our history in this country).
As someone who’s never met a “race” of people within which I didn’t find someone attractive (and whom I’d certainly be willing to give a chance at dating me), this kind of shit really makes my brain explode.
Yeah, I’ve heard people say that such-and-such just is/isn’t their preference, too, and I’ve always wondered what, exactly, the difference was in cases like this. Especially when it comes to folks who’ve never even dated or otherwise interacted in any significant way with the non-preferred group. I mean, I can say, for instance, that I definitely prefer, say, Cabernet over Malbec, but that’s because I’ve tried them both. But if I were to say that without having tried them both, I would be considered, at best, rather ill-informed, so how people can do this WRT to which race they’d date and think that they’re sane boggles my mind.
And, Deftones: I don’t know if you’re still reading this thread, but I’ve appreciated your contribution here.
I’m not quite sure what it is you’re saying was the issue/problem. They demanded sex for hours at a time? Maybe they just liked sex and didn’t want you to stop. I’m not getting how you leap to these questions based on the info you provided.
Eh…sometimes we need to separate the construct of race from the idea of physical appearance. Some guys aren’t into redheads, some guys aren’t into girls with short hair. Some guys aren’t into girls with freckles or girls who are too short or too tall. It isn’t because they have something against these girls, it’s just that physically they don’t do anything for them. There isn’t anything racist about that as far as I can see, just like there isn’t anything racist about preferring blondes to brunettes.
In this day and age, where “racist” has replaced “communist” as the verbal equivalent of dynamite, with the power to sink careers, tarnish reputations permanently, etc, I think we need to avoid throwing it around when it’s not warranted.
In the case of someone who happens to not be physically attracted to women of a certain physical type that happens to correspond to a certain ethnic background, it is not warranted.
Beg to differ, but I think the modern dynamite (more like nuclear) word is “pedophile”. No joke.
This is probably true, but which of those gets hauled out more as a weapon against peoples’ political enemies?
Yeppers. Unfortunately, we still live in a world where certain physical preferences are more socially acceptable than others.
For example, you can probably get away with saying that you’re not attracted to Asians, though such comments might consider that offensive. If you say that you do not find blacks attractive though, you’re more likely to receive a tongue-lashing, warranted or not. IME, people seldom offer such comments openly; rather, they do so privately and in hushed tones.
Similarly, it’s generally considered acceptable for women to say that they only find tall men attractive. However, if a man were to say that he only likes slender women… well, we all know what kind of backlash he can expect.
And speaking of weight, what about fat men vs. fat women? Society constantly urges us to overlook people’s waistlines; however, people express stronger condemnation toward men who prefer slender partners than for women who do the same. (Yes, I know it’s because overweight men generally have more options than overweight women do. The point is that while both types of discrimination are discouraged, one is considered more socially acceptable than the other.)
You’re right–it isn’t racist to prefer blonds over brunettes, or short people over tall people, or to have a preference WRT *most * other traits that human beings possess. And, certainly, no one here has implied as much, and I couldn’t imagine them doing so.
But we’re talking about race here, in a country where, since its inception, race has been a salient determinant WRT the rights, privileges, and access to resources that have been either granted to or denied entire groups of people. So while I *could * believe that it’s possible for a person of race “A” to say that they don’t find people of race “B” to be attractive/potential life partner material, and for race to have no bearing on that, given our country’s history WRT race relations, and given the way that racism and the stratification of races seem to be so much a part of our DNA that so many of us take in this shit without even realizing it (I’ve posted several times on these boards about this topic), I’m not very eager to buy it.
As much as I may believe that people harbor racist tendencies that they might not realize that they harbor, I agree wholeheartedly that people ought to be very careful about leveling charges of racism. (And here, I’m talking more about charges of capital “R” racism, as opposed to the little “r” racism that I think alot of “non-racist” people carry around with them.) That doesn’t mean, however, that one should ignore the possibility that either capital “R” or little “r” racism could be at work whenever someone says, “I’m just not attracted to “X” race of people.” I mean, really, they haven’t seen even one single person of “X” race?(assuming, of course, fairly wide variations of other traits within said race).
Oh, and I think that **Koxinga’s ** probably right about “pedophile” being the modern verbal equivalent of dynamite, but I also think that you could be correct in that “racist” is the one used more often.
Well, if, for instance, all black people had three arms, and someone who was not into three-armed people were to say, “I don’t find black people attractive/want to have a relationship with a black person,” I’d agree. But, really, how often is it the case that an *entire * race of people is going to possess some physical trait that’s not somebody’s cup of tea? (And that’s an honest question. There may be possibilities, I’ll admit, but I’m in a bat-out-of-hell rush to get out the door and to an appointment, so so I can’t really think about it at the moment.)
You mean like dark skin? Or single eyelids?
A person can have a preference for lighter skin without being a racist–even though this means he will be unattracted to 90+% of the negroid race.
A person can be turned off by the appearance of a single eyelid without being a racist–even though this means he will be unattracted to 90+% of the mongoloid race.
A person can be extremely turned on by dark skin. The darker the better! These people will be categorically unattracted–or at least less attracted*–to caucasians.
I was going to pretty much say exactly what Argent Towers said, but he beat me to it. Some people really dont like red heads at all. Other people are completely turned off by dark skin. And since we are only talking about physical appearance, the simple act of observing these physical characteristics is sampling them. You only need to see something to decide if you find it visually pleasing or not.
So I dont agree with your statement about how can people say they aren’t attracted to a certain large group of the population if they have never dated one. People know what they find visually pleasing.
Now, I will completely agree with you that there are plenty of people who choose whom they will date and not date–and who they find ugly and attractive–for racial and not purely physical reasons. Whether they realize it or not… But you should agree that there are also plenty of people out there who see things on such simple terms that race is completely irrelevant in the matter and they are only expressing the physical characterists they find more attractive over the other.
I haved some limited eperience in this matter. I dated a black woman in a mostly white university and a brother has been married an Asian woman for 20 years.
I believe the discrepency arises from cultural influences and the choice is primarily made by those “left behind”.
In regard to black women, I believe they generally represent the core identity of their “race”. They generally grow up in environments dominated by their own vibrant culture and feel uncomfortable immersing themselves in the white dominated culture and thereby abandoning their own. More often than not, the female partner in any case assumes a social structure based on her husband’s friends and career. If their relationships with black men fail, they prefer to be without a partner than seriously attach inter-racially. I can personally recall how on several weekends when my black dating partner was visited by her black friends that I was temporarily “dumped”.
In regard to Asian women, based on what my sister in law tells me, their culture does not value women other then to serve their Asian men who are loathe to give up their prefered position. They are all to eager to assimulate into western culture. And, I didn’t get this from SIL, but lets face it, women prefer height in their partner.
And I’m only pointing out generalities with regard to those who influence the statistics.
I see I failed to discuss Asian men. They lose to other “races” for the same reason they lose to their own.
The key is that perception trumps reality.
Certain Asian cultures are more blatantly patriarchal and sexist than American culture (or at least sexist in different ways that may matter more to women), but does that imply that Asian American males are more sexist?
No. And I have never noticed that to be the case personally. But Asian American males have very little recourse; how can they get the message out there that they are not sexist? They have minimal representation in popular culture, and what little they have is dwarfed by selected Asian cultural imports that portray them in an unfair light.
It is also unfortunate that Asian American males complaining about Asian American women dating “outside their race” only serves to confirm the negative perception of Asian American males.
It sends the message that Asian American women belong to them like property, and are being “stolen.” When you are trying to deal with being seen as patriarchal and sexist, this is not a good message to send.
Of course, if Asian American men were the more successful ones in dating White women, then no doubt White men would be the ones complaining, and thus appear more sexist. So by no means does this response actually mean Asian American men are more sexist. But it does strengthen the perception.
Well, Bear_Nenno, your numbers notwithstanding, I *did * say “entire group”. And perhaps I should clarify: I didn’t deny the possibility that people can “see things on such simple terms that race is completely irrelevant in the matter”. What I actually said–or, rather, what I perhaps should have said more clearly–was that, given our country’s racial history (and, hell, to some degree, racial present), I’m not as likely, initially, to give this possibility as much weight as I would other, potentially more nefarious possibilities. This is true *especially * when the language used, without qualifiers, is “I’m not attracted to such-and-such race”. (I mean, honestly, how can someone who has grown up in this country and is presumably aware of its various racial mindfields not “get” the necessity for clarity of language in matters like this? Hell, if the kind of eyelids that are present in the vast majority of Asians isn’t attractive to you, then say that. I just don’t think you can say, “I’m not attracted to Asians” and not expect at least some eyebrows to be raised, y’know?)
And I’ll add here that, while I’m certainly capable of accepting that someone just isn’t attracted to dark skin, there may be a part of me, however small, that wonders just what the hell *that’s * about. And before anyone jumps down my throat and accuses me of gratuitously beating the racism drum, I said “may” (e.g., it depends–does this person ordinarily not like *any * dark colors?), not “definitely would”.
Does this clarify my position?
Oh please. "Um…yeah, I’m just not attracted to women who have this certain kind of eyelid…uh, it’s hard to explain…you know, those eyelids that are like, all…
“all what?”
“Uh, you know…those kind of eyelids that are all like, um…something about some kind of fold…can’t remember what they call it…”
“What are you talking about?”
“You know! I’m just not attracted to women that have those, like…er…narrow eyes, I guess is what I’m trying to say?”
“Are you saying you’re not attracted to Asians?”
I don’t want to have to give a fucking biology lesson when I’m explaining what I don’t find attractive in someone. (For the record, I find all races and body types attractive, but I don’t have a problem with those who are more picky.)
What the hell that’s about? Uh, it’s about them not being attracted to dark skin. What’s there to talk about here?
If I’d rather have a red car than a black car, does that also imply some kind of hidden racist motive, or does it just mean I find one color to be more aesthetically pleasing over another?
As far as Asian males go, I’m inclined to be attracted to them than not. I’m a major rice queen and have been for as long as I can remember being attracted to men at all. Which is weird since it’s not like the city I grew up in had any even moderately large number of Asian residents.