Asian men and Black women: Left behind in the interracial dating game (?)

[Li_l_Pluck]

[QUOTE=Argent Towers]
Oh please. <snipped for length>
[/QUOTE]

You know what, Argent Towers? I’ve never had a problem with you (even when I haven’t agreed with those posts of yours that I’ve happened to come across–and such disagreement hasn’t occurred often), but I don’t appreciate the unwarranted shade you just tossed my way. So I’ll just say that when you’re ready to deal with me with the same respect that I believe I’ve accorded you in this thread instead of treating me like an imbecile, I’ll be happy to continue this discussion with you. Everyone else? Please carry on.

Oh, and that red car/black car thing? Honestly, sir, I expected better from you.

[Argent_Towers]

I’ve never had a problem with you either. Actually, I’ve always liked you. I’m sorry I was so hostile - really! If you were here, I’d buy you a drink.

I still disagree with what you’re saying, at least some of it, but I apologize if I came off as condescending.

[Carson_O_Genic]

[QUOTE=you with the face]
I’m not quite sure what it is you’re saying was the issue/problem. They demanded sex for hours at a time? Maybe they just liked sex and didn’t want you to stop. I’m not getting how you leap to these questions based on the info you provided.
[/QUOTE]

Your remarks in post #58 are what prompted my questions, which over forty some years musing after the fact are hardly leaps. You note that black women living in predominantly black culture "have their eyes fixed on a black knight in shining armour and therefore, are not going out of their way to attract white men and others."
The one woman I dated lived with her parents and some of her brothers, our first few dates were in their home.
The other I met at work, which was in the black part of town, where she lived.

That would seem counter to your observation, as I was approached by them. I’m simply soliciting opinions from you as to what their motivations may have been.

[you_with_the_face]

[QUOTE=Carson O’Genic]
The other I met at work, which was in the black part of town, where she lived.
That would seem counter to your observation, as I was approached by them. I’m simply soliciting opinions from you as to what their motivations may have been.
[/QUOTE]

Does it really make sense to counter my general observation about the dating proclivites of black women as a group with anecdotes about a grand total of two women? After all, everyone knows one or two smokers who live to be in their late 80’s. But these anecdotes don’t disprove the observation that smokers as a group tend to die younger.

I have no reason to believe their reasons for approaching you were different than any reason any woman approaches a man. They probably don’t have many reservations against “dating out”, that much seems clear.

[Carson_O_Genic]

My intent in asking isn’t to debate views you may have but simply get your opinion.
Thanks for your response. Never let it be said I understand women of any species, planet or extraction.

[Li_l_Pluck]

[QUOTE=Argent Towers]
I’ve never had a problem with you either. Actually, I’ve always liked you. I’m sorry I was so hostile - really! If you were here, I’d buy you a drink.

I still disagree with what you’re saying, at least some of it, but I apologize if I came off as condescending.
[/QUOTE]

Apology accepted. Todah rabbah. (ETA: thank you very much.) And if I were there, sir, I’d gladly accept that drink.

Again, I’m not saying that there couldn’t be perfectly valid, innocuous, non-racist reasons why someone might not be attracted to “X” race of people. I’m just saying that, if one makes such a claim, one shouldn’t be surprised if people wonder why. And, if, lacking information other than “I’m not attracted to such-and-such race of people,” they *might * ascribe racist motives. Not necessarily would, but might.

[tomndebb]

[QUOTE=Li’l Pluck]
Again, I’m not saying that there couldn’t be perfectly valid, innocuous, non-racist reasons why someone might not be attracted to “X” race of people. I’m just saying that, if one makes such a claim, one shouldn’t be surprised if people wonder why. And, if, lacking information other than “I’m not attracted to such-and-such race of people,” they *might * ascribe racist motives. Not necessarily would, but might.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, your original statement went so far as to call the entire notion “bullshit,” so your current statement that outsiders might draw a conclusion, possibly incorrectly, is a serious change in stance.

I tend to go with the point Argent Towers raised that if the discussion actually comes up, it seems pretty clear that the verbal shorthand to describe a particular group of appearances by the ethnic group most associated with those appearances is very likely more a matter of brevity than racial identity.

There is also a difference between a person saying “I am not attracted by blacks” and saying “I think Venus (or Serena) Williams is unattractive; she’s black.” Your earlier comment

@Li'l Pluck

That doesn’t mean, however, that one should ignore the possibility that either capital “R” or little “r” racism could be at work whenever someone says, “I’m just not attracted to “X” race of people.” I mean, really, they haven’t seen even one single person of “X” race?. . .

demonstrates an excluded middle. Not being attracted to a group hardly precludes the possibility that individuals within the group are still found to be attractive. I knew a guy who was seriously enamored of the shorter, darker Latin appearance and was openly dismissive of tall, blonde Scandinavians, but was absolutely smitten by Julie Newmar.

Now, I would agree that a general declaration that “I don’t like [whatever-ethnicity]” might be an indicator of racism, but your initial declaration was far too strong to be supportable.

[Windwalker]

[QUOTE=Li’l Pluck]

And I’ll add here that, while I’m certainly capable of accepting that someone just isn’t attracted to dark skin, there may be a part of me, however small, that wonders just what the hell *that’s * about. And before anyone jumps down my throat and accuses me of gratuitously beating the racism drum, I said “may” (e.g., it depends–does this person ordinarily not like *any * dark colors?), not “definitely would”.

Does this clarify my position?
[/QUOTE]

I think one good indicator about someone’s supposed racism is how they treat non-romantic/sexual interactions with that race. If they show the same level of comfort around and willingness to befriend people of that race, then it’s more than likely that they’re probably just expressing their uncontrollable attraction tendencies. Just because a guy isn’t attracted to girls, for example, doesn’t mean he’s sexist or misogynist. Same goes for redheads, freckles, shorties, fatties, and in my opinion, skin color.

And while I have been attracted to many people of every race I’ve encountered, I can tell you that my rate of attraction is indeed different for the varying races. The highest hit rate for me seems to be the ambiguous Middle Eastern set, but I don’t think that means I’m racist against whites, Asians, and blacks. I can see some people’s hit rates being very low, even close to zero, for some groups. It can’t be helped.

[Li_l_Pluck]

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
Actually, your original statement went so far as to call the entire notion “bullshit,” so your current statement that outsiders might draw a conclusion, possibly incorrectly, is a serious change in stance.
[/QUOTE]

Are you referring to this statement?

[QUOTE=Li’l Pluck]
But we’re talking about race here, in a country where, since its inception, race has been a salient determinant WRT the rights, privileges, and access to resources that have been either granted to or denied entire groups of people. So while I could believe that it’s possible for a person of race “A” to say that they don’t find people of race “B” to be attractive/potential life partner material, and for race to have no bearing on that, given our country’s history WRT race relations, and given the way that racism and the stratification of races seem to be so much a part of our DNA that so many of us take in this shit without even realizing it (I’ve posted several times on these boards about this topic), I’m not very eager to buy it.
[/QUOTE]

(bolding mine)

If so, would you please explain to me how “I’m not very eager to buy it” is tantamount to “call[ing] the entire notion ‘bullshit’”? I mean, really, your characterization of my position seems a little over-the-top. What you call a “serious change in stance” is what I’d call, at worst, a moderation of my position. I really feel, though, that it’s more of a clarification than anything.

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
I tend to go with the point Argent Towers raised that if the discussion actually comes up, it seems pretty clear that the verbal shorthand to describe a particular group of appearances by the ethnic group most associated with those appearances is very likely more a matter of brevity than racial identity.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but saying, for instance, that I’m not attracted to Asians says only that I’m not attracted to Asians*, and it leaves people to their own devices to either wonder “WTH?” or to shrug. It doesn’t say, for instance, that I’m not attracted to epicanthic folds (if, indeed, that is the reason for my lack of attraction). The point that I was trying to make in my previous posts (the ones that you didn’t quote) was that, unless you want “X” number of people to wonder if there might not be some racist intent behind your lack of attraction to a particular race of people, you probably shouldn’t say things like “I’m not attracted to such-and-such race” without providing qualifiers. If you think I’m not being clear here, please just let me know, and I’ll try to find another way of getting my point across.

*Not true, just an example–I’ve seen plenty of hot Asian guys in my day. I just don’t think they’ve seen me.

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
There is also a difference between a person saying “I am not attracted by blacks” and saying “I think Venus (or Serena) Williams is unattractive; she’s black.”
[/QUOTE]

I swear that I’m not trying to be obtuse, but assuming that the semi-colon in the second example = “because,” I fail to see any substantive difference between the two statements. If there’s ignorance to be fought here, please do so.

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
Not being attracted to a group hardly precludes the possibility that individuals within the group are still found to be attractive. I knew a guy who was seriously enamored of the shorter, darker Latin appearance and was openly dismissive of tall, blonde Scandinavians, but was absolutely smitten by Julie Newmar.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t disagree (even if I don’t *completely * “get” it), and I don’t recall having done so in this thread. And for the upteenth time, my point is, restated slightly, this: We can orgasm all we want over the fact that a man who is objectively visually identified as black could become the next POTUS, and we can Kumbaya ourselves to distraction about how that represents racial progress in the U.S., but ISTM–and very much so–that we still live in a racially-sensitive climate, and if you’re going to say that you’re not attracted to, say, black people, a number of people that I am unable to determine *may * very well wonder what motives lie behind the exclusion.

[Li_l_Pluck]

[QUOTE=Windwalker]
I think one good indicator about someone’s supposed racism is how they treat non-romantic/sexual interactions with that race. If they show the same level of comfort around and willingness to befriend people of that race, then it’s more than likely that they’re probably just expressing their uncontrollable attraction tendencies.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I’ve heard this before. Not to disregard any merit your point may have, but I (and other blacks) have written on these boards about the incremental nature of racism, and I’m not yet convinced otherwise. I wouldn’t necessarily claim to know if a white dude who’s friends with blacks but wouldn’t date a black person is racist (what I’ve referred to in the past as little “r” racism), but having grown up in this country with its often schizophrenic racism, I don’t know that I could outright discount the possibility, either. I mean, hell, it wouldn’t be the first time that someone considered us good enough for “x”, but not good enough for “y”. But, then again, maybe I’ve just heard too many stories of white liberals who’ve wigged out over their kid (usually their daughter) being romantically involved with some black dude.

[QUOTE=Windwalker]
Just because a guy isn’t attracted to girls, for example, doesn’t mean he’s sexist or misogynist. Same goes for redheads, freckles, shorties, fatties, and in my opinion, skin color.
[/QUOTE]

As a gay man, I am well ahead of you here, but I wouldn’t equate something that I see as innate as sexual orientation with attraction, or lack thereof, to a particular race.

[Cat_Fight]

[QUOTE=Bear_Nenno]
Some people really dont like red heads at all. Other people are completely turned off by dark skin. And since we are only talking about physical appearance, the simple act of observing these physical characteristics is sampling them. You only need to see something to decide if you find it visually pleasing or not.
[/QUOTE]

But that makes it sound as if you’re born then get a selection of, what, a ‘representative’ of each race, then take your pick. If 90 percent of the women you see, especially those in ‘attractive’ roles (make-up ads, music videos), are of a certain race and type (let me go out on a limb– blue eyes, blond hair, big boobs), of course that’s going to feed in to what you find attractive.

That’s not saying you don’t find one race or another attractive is racist (though Li’l Pluck is certainly onto something – there’s something unsettling about discounting an entire country or continent because of a select sampling), but certainly one can see how racism – in advertising, the modeling world, film production – would encourage or discourage perceptions of what’s beautiful.

[Windwalker]

[QUOTE=Cat Fight]

That’s not saying you don’t find one race or another attractive is racist (though Li’l Pluck is certainly onto something – there’s something unsettling about discounting an entire country or continent because of a select sampling), but certainly one can see how racism – in advertising, the modeling world, film production – would encourage or discourage perceptions of what’s beautiful.
[/QUOTE]

Perhaps it’s not so much as actively discounting that country/continent so much as looking at your own history and coming to a conclusion. If you look back and realize that you’ve only found three Hispanic girls attractive in your whole life, then you may generalize yourself and say, “I’m not really into Hispanic girls.” Of course, some people DO discount certain groups unfairly, but I’m sure some use the above process, as well.

And I agree that we’re definitely shaped by what’s being presented to us in the media, but I don’t think you can really be blamed if you’ve been conditioned to find tall, blonde white women (as an example) attractive and the conditioning has worked. You should try to fight it, I suppose, but it’s really hard, if not impossible, to actively change your tastes once you’ve solidified them.