Ask the Black Guy

Great Debates
81

Based on the answers I’ve seen so far, you seem like a friendly, sociable, intelligent guy. How do you feel about young black people that perpetuate the “hoodlum” stereotype? I cringe almost every time I see young black kids wearing baggy pants, bandannas, and speaking in a very very uneducated manner (although this “style” is also getting real common with white kids too). I have the same reaction to annoying flaming gay guys, snooty stuck-up white folks, white trash white folks, and anyone else that fits the negative stereotype of their race/religion/sex etc. Don’t get me wrong, I’m very accepting, but wouldn’t stereotypes go away faster if they were true less often?

Anyways, does it bother you to have someone that supposedly represents your entire race looking so damn foolish?

Also, what’s up with “The Man”?

Do you think that black people are really being kept down despite making their best efforts? If not, does it bother you when people use that as an excuse for a lack of success, or does it just make your successes seem even greater?

82

I wrote long answers because I didn’t have time to write short ones.

  1. Stereotypes aren’t about how people in a culture act. They’re about how other people outside it perceive how they act. It’s dumb to assume all young black males (and females) are like that, but it’s equally dumb to completely dismiss their music, dress, slang and braggadocio as unappealing just because you didn’t grow up with it or may or may not get it. How some 20-ish black male grew up in the 'hoods of Compton, Watts, Los Angeles and the gang culture out 3,000 miles away is going to be different from how I grew up in the Sunny South. But whether you easily tolerate it or not, it’s probrably better appreciated from a distance. I would have problems with kids acting that way in my classroom. Stereotypes never go away because culture (almost) never goes away. At best they either become less obvious as time passes, or you grow more tolerant, or you move. :wink: Personally I still listen to too many of my old Death Row CDs with Snoop, Dre, Tupac and NWA to condemn it completely.

  2. Despite what the history books say and excluding the achievements of black athletes in certain sporting events,(Jesse Owens vs. The Reich, i.e.), nobody ever really “represented” an entire race, especially African-Americans, particularly in America. At best you had some black leaders tacitly ‘approved’ by the white establishment and thus were provided with more honors, more access to the media, more advisement on policy, etc. Even in the sixties there were at least four major divergent schools of thought within the civil rights movement away from King’s Non-violence. I don’t believe there has ever been a monolithic black community in this country. If there wasn’t a consensus during 300 years of slavery, we ain’t never gonna get it. Black leadership emerges primarily from social organizations and churches, same as it did 150 years ago. There are no political elections to get them. So nobody speaks for us all – except maybe Chris Rock. Problem with that is Chris thinks Pat Riley should speak for us. When certain of today’s leaders screw up royally in the public eye, why should anyone assume I’d be bothered by it on a personal level? He’s not my sister’s baby daddy. (Believe me – this goes back waaaaaay further than Jesse.)

  3. Dunno. I thought You Da Man.

  4. The Glass Ceiling exists. Institutionalized discrimination is the de facto exclusion of anyone who wasn’t born the right gender, or groomed in the right socioeconomic and academic institutions that produce the power elite, or in the usual job pool for people who work a certain occupation. To a certain degree I can be sympathetic to anyone who is excluded from advancement in a field in a certain place because Lord knows it does happen, but on the other hand, success can be anywhere and anyplace you see need and opportunity. In a global marketplace what keeps you from succeeding in New York may get you rich in Charlotte or Trinidad. So damn. Move.

83

I tried to stay out of this thread, but I wasn’t feelin’ it till now.

Askia said:
“Stereotypes aren’t about how people in a culture act. They’re about how other people outside it perceive how they act.”

and

“Despite what the history books say and excluding the achievements of black athletes in certain sporting events,(Jesse Owens vs. The Reich, i.e.), nobody ever really “represented” an entire race, especially African-Americans, particularly in America. At best you had some black leaders tacitly ‘approved’ by the white establishment and thus were provided with more honors, more access to the media, more advisement on policy, etc.”

I don’t understand why instead of getting to know black people and understanding that just because their culture is different, it is no less valid or valuable than one’s own, people persist in generalizing black people–or any other group of folks for that matter–into a narrow set of stereotypes when common sense and logic tells us that groups are made up of INDIVDUALS, even if those individuals wear certain types of clothes, listen to certain types of music, or speak certain variations of English. And by the way, Ebonics is not “uneducated.” [ VERY BIG SIGH] Black culture, which is derived from the joyous and painful perspectives of untold INDIVIDUALS, has had and continues to have an unquantifiable impact on what we call American culture, from its music, to its mode of dress, and even its style of speaking. Black culture is multicultural, for it melds aspects of European, African, and other cultures. It is truly a melting pot. And yes, black people don’t have leaders. I’m sure they have, can, and will continue as INDIVIDUALS to lead themselves. It’s sad that people like Askia, stuffnb, and Biggirl have to feel put on the spot to “represent” black people, even though they can’t truly speak for ALL black people, but rather just to present their own unique perspectives as blacks, but I appreciate that they are trying to educate folks about blacks.
So, yes, Askia, preach on! :slight_smile:

84

Preach on yourself. Shoot. Wise and brief.

85

Just wanted to say great answers

86

This has been kind of touched on, but not adressed specifically(at least that I can find, but I’m kind of a moron ).

Do you ever find your self acting diferently, or using different language when you are among white people than black people. Also have you witnessed much ‘Uncle Tom’ resentment towards blacks who are sucessful in a mostly white field.

87

  1. Not usually. BUT. I make it a point that whenever I deal with members of law enforcement that they need to accord me a certain amount of professionalism and courtesy. If I’m not given the same careful respect I show, I cease to cooperate with that particular officer. That got me threatened on one occassion, but then I leaned forward and recited the officer’s name, badge number, and mentioned I’m a writer. He went back outside his car and I dealt with his partner. Maybe that was a good cop/ bad cop tactic that backfired, but I’ve seen waaaay too many episodes of “Homocide” to play games with the police.

  2. Uncle Toms are resented foremost because of their attitudes and lifestyles, not job success. Pure job success resentment is largely incidental, in my experience. They’re viewed as either being 1) unusually deferential or accommodating to whites just because they’re white 2) too ultra-conservative/politically indifferent 3) deny, through omission or acknowledgement, where they come from or 4) are fearful, undermining obstacles in the workplace (esp. in the corporate workplace, I’m told.) These flaws do them in whether they’re real or imagined.

88

Add to that – NO. I don’t see it very often because I don’t really see that many obvious Uncle Toms. Blonde-woman obsessed Bryant Gumbel is the only major TV personality I could name, Clarence Thomas outed himself as a Tom politically and Tiger Woods comes closest in sports. Although Serena and Venus Williams are beloved now, the real acid test comes when they start to date. (Yes, interracial dating and marriage is a huge factor in Uncle Tomism. But nobody accuses Quincy Jones of being a Tom.)

89

Damn it, this does throw a wrench in my secret fantasies now doesn’t it.

90

Collounsbury, based on the level-headed responses I’ve read of yours, you can date my as-yet-unborn daughters when they come of age if you were twenty years younger any time.

91

Oh, but are they guaranteed to have the William’s sisters’ legs?

Wait, what am I saying. I think I should go home now.

92

I always thought dating outside your race meant that you like this person. Geez, this means I was an Aunt Tomisina until I got married.

Seeing as how the physical rated somewhat lower on my “date-worthy” scale than, say, openmindedness-- it never occurred to me that I was sucking up to white people just by dating them. As a matter of fact, my dating a white person is the exact opposite of sucking up.

Yea, I like the sound of that. Men of all races rushed to throw rose petals at my feet. I bestowed onto all who dated me – Hispanics, Asians, Europeans and blacks-- the wonder and beauty of my distinct blackness.

What does (not so) secretly lusting after Collounsbury make me? I’ll tell you what it makes me: A married internet geek with a very vivid imagination. It doesn’t make me an Uncle Tom. Too bad I can’t tempt Coll with William’s type thighs.

93

Wolfman**** For the most part, I talk and act differently to different audiences depending on the norm expected. I.e., I’m not going to use the same language to the guy on the street corner that I use to the president of XYZ Aircraft.

Interacial Dating I had considerable experience at this. I’ve found considerable resentment towrds me from women, when I’ve dated outside my race, but I wouldn’t neccesarily call Uncle Tomism. I think that most black women feel there are too few “good” black men out there and they resent one being taken off the market by someone of another race YMMV.

94

Askia & stuffinb, thanks for what you said. I try to help out where I can, but I only represent my perspective on things based on what I’ve experienced or studied. I ain’t speaking for the race/culture. :slight_smile:

Lord, I was trying to stay out of this, and now this is gonna get complicated, but I gotta disagree with you Askia on the interracial dating = Uncle Tomism thing too. It’s much more complex than you presented it to be. Bear with me, I’m getting into lecture mode.

Certainly, dating outside one’s race is difficult to do. Some of the most uncomfortable dates I’ve been on were interracial ones because people were all up in my date’s and my business. I hate that shit! I say more power to those who try it, but I don’t think that interracial dating/marriage constitutes “sellin’ out.” I agree with Biggirl that with the dearth of eligible–that is single, not in prison, not gay, not threatened by black women who have either more earning power or education than them–black males, black women are going to have to expand their horizons and date and perhaps marry outside of their race/culture. What I look for in a man is someone who can love me for me; intelligence; respect for me and for others; openmindedness; someone who can hang with me being excessively silly AND serious as a heart attack when I’ve mind to be; and the ability to communicate well with me and with others [Oh dear, the lack of parallelism in that list!]. I’d LOVE it if I could find those things in a black man, but I’m not going to limit myself just to black men because that’s going to lessen my chances of finding someone. But every woman has her standards.

I think the Uncle Tomism tie to black-white dating comes into play when you look at the psycho-social damage that the history of race relations in America has wrought. It’s difficult for many black females and males to trust white males because of the history of white men raping black women and not getting prosecuted for it both during and after slavery. We only have to look to Sally Hemings and Thomas Jefferson for an example of the slavery perspective. And yes, like that awful and historically inaccurate televised version of their story that came out last year, you can argue that they may have actually loved each other (I doubt it), but the point that gets overlooked time and time again with them is that SHE DIDN’T HAVE A CHOICE. She most likely was raped by Jefferson, but she couldn’t go down to the courthouse and accuse him of it. At the very least she’d have been beaten and perhaps raped at the courthouse for doing so. Okay, I’m starting to get upset so I need to get off of the Sally Hemings and Thomas Jefferson thing. The point is that during slavery white men justified raping black women who were enslaved by saying they were asking for it, that they tempted them by wearing scanty clothing and going out of their way to seduce them. Because of this history, it is difficult for black women to not view with suspicion white male interest in them.

It’s also difficult for many black people to trust the notion of black men dating white women because of the history of black males being lynched for THINKING ABOUT raping a white woman and because of the history of white patriarchy holding white women up as the standard of beauty. Some black women view successful black men (e.g. has advanced degrees, a good job, a nice car, blah, blah, blah) dating/marrying white women as a slap in the face. It is a denial of them as beautiful and worthy of attention, marriage, family, whatever. It has been surmised by many black people that some successful black men like Clarence Thomas marry white women to increase their status. In a sense, a black man marrying a white woman is a means of raising his status, for he has acquired what white men privilege. It’s also a way for black men to overcome the history of being viewed as less than human, as beasts and rapists, if a black man can and does marry a white woman. Some people think that a black man is not successful until he has married a white woman. I’m not saying this makes sense, but that is what I have heard from black people time and time again. There’s just some tricky psychological stuff going on here.

I know I haven’t even scratched the surface of this complex issue. I’d have to write quite a few books to do that, but I hope I’ve added a little more clarity to the issue. I do want to be clear. I’m not saying it’s wrong for black men or black women to date and marry outside of their race or culture, I’m just saying it’s tricky for them to do so because there’s always doubt about that person’s intentions. You can’t help but wonder if the person is interested in you as a person, or just because they’ve got a black fetish, or they want to experiment because they’ve bought into all the stereotypes about how hypersexualized black people are supposed to be. Again, I say more power to those who have the energy to weed through the chaff.

Oh, and Biggirl, I’ll bet there are a lot of female dopers who have big crushes on Collounsbury, myself included. [giggle] (Hey, Sugarlump.) I just know that he’s going to get a swelled head from this.

95

I want to chime in again celestina on Interacial dating.

When I went to college my grandmothers pulled me aside and said “Now you stay away from those white girls” A messafe that had no hope of succeeding as I was only one of 40 or so black people in my Freshman class at Davis. Most of my interacial dating experience drew from this time, and my subsequent time in the military.

It was not uncommom to find disapproval among the older set of people who still remember the the things you’ve mentioned. People my age were either supportive or at the least chose not to comment.

This changed. After I divorced (black woman btw) and returned to dating, I began to date amonsgt people I knew and their friends. So I was dating quite a bit out of my race. That’s when I began to experience disapproval from black women in my age group. It may have a lot to do with the whole, college educated, good job, non inmate, thing biggirl and celestina mentioned. Just thought I’d share that.

96

Well, ahem, I didn’t mean my small fantasy about the Williams sisters to run out of control now. ( I do prefer Venus but I begin to reveal rather too much. Damn rhum.)

But rather more seriously, now that I am given the excuse, or not, and given the bloody racial biology issue has once more raised its ugly head in a thread soon to join us here I do believe, I thought I would cite to an editorial by Orlando Patterson, drawn to my attention recently. Orlando is something of an … hero, or something like that, of mine.

Entitled “Race by the Numbers”

Orlando argues,

How does this fit in this thread?

Well on two levels: perhaps it gives our black posters (shall we have badges?) a chance to comment on
(a) the concept of multiracialism in terms of children, census and themselves
(b) the relations in terms of politics and personal with other minorities, I resist quotation marks here, strategically using their status but, as anyone can tell from Hispanic TV, with conflicted feelings about skin color. (An aside, I’ve seen on satellite the new Brazilian program Xica. I may need heart surgury.)

Or not.

97

I’m wondering if any of our black posters would take a look at this thread:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=71535

and tell me if I’ve described an incident that occured poorly or offensively. You can skip down to my “Day two, Brute” post if you like.

Thanks.

98

I am, in fact, a mutt.

There is one thing I learned: in the US black trumps all. I was raised by my mother’s mother who was born in Spain and raised in Puerto Rico, yet to the world at large I am black.

I have no problem being black just as I have no problem being Puerto Rican. Everyone else has a problem if I self-identify as anything but black.

I remember when Tiger Woods said that he was half Asian and had no problem self-identifying himself as such. All the black people I know were in an absolute uproar over this. They all were quite vocal about it. Around me. Like I would agree with denying any part of my heritage.

There seems to be a silent consensus in this country that if you are multi-racial (especially if you are black and anything else) you have to choose what “race” you are. If you are dark-skinned your choice is made for you.

I choose to be the quintessential American: Black/American Indian/European/Hispanic.

P.S. I tried to preview this post 4 times with no success. If the coding is bad or my spelling is atrocious, blame the server.

99

Scylla,

This is why I, personally, get really, really offended and upset when I see black teenagers acting like assholes. If you get a bunch of older teenagers together, especially unsupervised, male teenagers-- there is a tendency for them to act very macho and exceedingly stupidly. People look at them and think “fucking kids.”

When you get a bunch of young black teenage males acting exceedingly stupidly people look at them and think “fucking blacks.”

They make me look bad.

Here’s a question for all you white folks: Do you feel more threatened when you see black kids roughhousing than you do when you see white ones doing the same thing?

100

Biggirl asks;

Absolutely not. I’ve gotten a lot more grief from rowdy white kids (and young adults) than from black. More than from any minority, I might add. Especially since I’ve gotten older (56).
And I’ve lived in mostly minority areas all my life.
BTW; I like young people, and don’t get any grief at all very often.
Peace,
mangeorge