Ask the Black Guy

Tenar: No DWB, no terribly unusual stops by cops. (Mall security and overzealous sales clerks in stores are whole another matter, tho – hell, my grandmother got followed the other day in a clothing store she’s shopped in the last 30 years!) But most DWB complaints come from large urban centers or stretches on the interstate with a lot of drug traffic (supposedly). I ride mass transit when I’ve lived in big cities, and I currently live in a small town.

From The Sage, Chris Rock: "You know who my favorite people are? A big, fat black woman. Give me a sister about 350 pounds. The best people in the whole world. Do you know why? We live in a society where nobody likes the f!ck who they are. Everybody’s on Prozac or some sh!t, everybody’s gettin’ cosmetic surgery… nobody likes who they are, except fat black women. She don’t give a f!ck what you think, she’s going out on Friday night! … She’s like, ‘I am sexy. Yes! I am SEX-EE. I’m the sexiest motherf!cker in here tonight. Yeah, I got a gut. There’s some good p!ssy under this gut!’ "

Askia, if you meant that test seriously, then it’s extremely problematic because it essentializes blackness and reinforces the notion that blackness and black culture are monolithic. [celestina wagging her finger at Askia] Really, the idea that someone can take a test to determine how black they are! Not many rational black people who associate with and know black people as individuals capable of loving black culture, but being constructively critical of it as well would make the “Supernigga” category, and that’s not fair, dangit! I want to be a “Supernigga, but by your test’s reckoning I’m not!” :frowning: However, I don’t think you meant it seriously. As a joke, it was funny as hell! :slight_smile:


spoke said:
“Do you ever get tired of (maybe well-intentioned) white folks who are so cloyingly deferential to you that it comes across as patronizing? Do those of you who live in predominantly white areas get that a lot?”


Excellent question! Well of course I get tired of white people–or any other people for that matter–being patronizing to me. They are the worst kind of racist because they don’t realize they are being racist, and you can’t educate them OR because they use that deference to blacks as a way to delude themselves into believing they are not racist, when probably they view blacks negatively. When I encounter these people, it doesn’t take long for me to figure it out. That kind of behavior [shudder] really makes me sick to my stomach, but then I just pity them, and if it’s at all possible, I just don’t associate with them. If I encounter them in the workplace–and I do–then I just try to be civil to and professional with them, but I don’t go out of my way to spend time with them or be friends with them outside of the workplace. Usually what I find with these sorts is that they aren’t looking to get to know me or any other black people as individuals. They want to hang out with black people so that 1.) they can reinforce whatever stereotypes they have of blacks or 2.) they can in some way find an outlet for dealing with white guilt. They still have their racist attitudes in place, however well hidden, but they can feel better about themselves because they’ve “got a black friend” or “they’re generally nice to black people.” They’re just insincere and covertly racist, and covert racism is a pain in the ass to deal with because like sexual harassment it’s difficult to prove. Sometimes it’s just a feeling I get about a person; sometimes it’s the inflection in his/her voice when s/he addresses me; and sometimes it’s that person’s body language.

For example, when I was an undergrad, I was preparing to do double senior honors theses, and I went to see the professor who handled signing folks up to do so. He was all nice and smiling when he commented something to the effect that he was surprised to see me doing any honors theses at all given how low my SAT scores were when I entered college. I guess I was proof he didn’t want to see that the SAT is not a good determiner for college admission or for predicting college performance. Whatever. I remember wondering what the hell my SAT scores–If you care to know, I made a 950 on it–had to do with doing honors theses and feeling uncomfortable with his line of questioning since he did not refer to my undergraduate college performance, which WAS RELEVANT to my eligibility to do double honors theses, but I said to him that I just didn’t study for the SAT, and that was true because I didn’t study for the SAT. I concluded my business with him, but later that day, it hit me that what he said and the context that he said it in was racist, and I got upset. From that day on until I graduated, I was civil and polite to this man, who occasionally sought me out to make small talk with me, but I was on my guard with him. I thank whatever gods may be out there that I didn’t have to take a class with him, where he would have been in a position to evaluate my performance. [shudder]

Of course, in the example you cited, it would depend on the people. I grew up with plenty of white Southerners and non-black non-Southerners with whom I was tight, but as tight as we were, there are certain places I wouldn’t appreciate them going (e.g. them calling me “Yo, you my nigga.” Come to think of it, I don’t even let black people call me that.), even if they were just joking. And they know me well enough to respect that. That’s why I call them my friends. There are some white people who don’t know that they don’t know that they are ignorant of black people/culture and that their ignorance, which can manifest itself in many subtle and overt ways is offensive and that no matter what I or any other black person could say, we would not be able to educate them. They have built up in their minds that they are not racist, even though some behaviors they exhibit are racist. Then there are other whites who are unaware of their ignorant behavior who once it is pointed out to them, adjust their behavior and thinking to be more considerate of what may be offensive to blacks. I’m not sure if this answers your question or not.

Vanilla, I have several famous blacks I admire. Historically it’d have to be Harriet Tubman because she had so much courage. I don’t know if I could have done what she did. Also Vernon Johns because he really is responsible for getting the Civil Rights Movement off the ground. Now the latest famous people I admire–it constantly changes–are actor Jeffrey Wright because he can ACT! He’s got such a range. I’ve seen him in “Shaft,” where he convinced me he’s Dominican. He’s an absolute riot in the role of Peoples Hernandez. I’ve seen him in “Boycott” an HBO movie where he plays MLK, Jr. so convincingly even down to the intonation patterns in his speeches, he has me believing he’s MLK, Jr. I can’t wait to check out what other work he’s done. I also like Angela Bassett. I thought she was robbed when she didn’t get the Oscar for “What’s Love Got to Do With It?” She was OUTSTANDING in that role! It’s a shame she doesn’t get roles that allow her to stretch that formidable acting talent of hers. Both these actors bring such a high level of craft and skill to the parts they play. I’m just in awe.

elfkin477, rap is derived from the toast/boast tradition in African American folk culture. This tradition is predicated on braggadocio and hyperbole. If you look at blues, there are sexual inuendos in the songs that when blues first came out black people found offensive (e.g. “jelly roll” refers to women’s genetalia). The same kind of shock stuff is going on in rap now, but it’s just more intense. Anyway, I don’t appreciate gangsta rappers refering to women or men as “ho’s,” “bitches,” or “niggas,” but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have the freedom to express their art. I think that if you listen to that stuff you have to keep in mind that gangsta rappers don’t represent all black people or even all forms of rap for that matter. What they present is an exaggeration of reality. Unfortunately some people buy into that exaggeration, but you don’t have to. If I hear offensive terms in songs, movies, or on tv, I don’t just start using them to refer to people. So basically, I’m saying to think critically about the authenticity of what languages/images are presented in the media.

Tenar, um, I can’t speak for the others, but I personally don’t like being addressed as: “Hey, Black folks!” I have a name, as do the few others who are answering questions in this thread. To respond to your question, no I haven’t been profiled while driving, but I imagine I’ve been followed around in stores while I’ve been shopping. [giggle] I LOVE purposely going into ritzy stores dressed like a hoodlum just to see what the sales clerks will do. :wink: If I find that I’m being profiled in stores, I just don’t give them my business. As far as weight, I don’t think about it. Actually, I’m terrible with numbers or judging size/weight. I lost a shitload of weight one time–'bout scared my mom to death when she saw me, and I was such a ditz I didn’t realize how different I looked–but not because I went on a diet. I didn’t manage my money well, and so I couldn’t afford to eat. That’s the worst feeling in the world when you don’t have enough money to buy a meal. It’s easier to go without food when you have food in the house or you have money to buy it. Anyway, I basically eat what I want. If my clothes start getting too tight, then I either exercise more, or buy bigger ones. But no matter what I weigh, I love myself for who I am, and I would hope that men would love me for myself no matter what size I am.

Hey, Celestina!

Thanks for your answer. Regarding “Hey, Black folks” as a salutation, no offense was intended. However, the original title of this thread was “Ask the Black Guy.” Since inquiries are no longer being addressed to or answered by Stuffinb alone, I addressed my inquiry to the entire informal “panel,” hence, “Hey, Black folks.” Under other circumstances, I would certainly not address you in the same fashion.

Askia K. Hale:

Oh, I am gonna have to argue with you here. Using “bitch” as a insult to men is 10X more misogynist than using it as a insult towards a woman. It implies that the worst thing a man can be is a woman. It is like people who call white trash “niggers” and think that somehow this means that they are not racist, when what it really shows is that they think that the bottom rung on the white social ladder is level with the middle of the black social ladder.

I just noticed something. Why is this thread still in GD?
Talk about your patronizing. :smiley:
Peace,
mangeorge

In honor of celestina’s post, I would like to submit a new shorthand abbrieviation for those who think LOL isn’t descriptive enough and LMAORAOTF is just too jumbled to type out.
I now present LACATST, i.e., Laughing And Crying At The Same Time. Disseminate immediately, please.


Manda Jo: I partly agree with you. Funny thing about “bitch,” tho. If a man uses it to describe a woman, the main emotion tapped is anger. She’s being difficult, opininated, defiant, is standing her own ground and not taking shit or giving in – basically very positive masculine traits. If a man’s called a bitch, the main emotion tapped is contempt. He’s being weak, indecisive, a punk, talking shit and backing down, pressured to give in, give up, give something over. Basically traits (as men see it) of a weak-willed woman.

But is that misogynist, i.e. woman-hating behavior? On the surface, yes, but only if you ignore the subtext, the emotional reservoir being tapped. When you truly hate someone, you have no respect for them, either. “Skank”, “Ho”, “Gold-digger”, “Slut” and “Punk” are terms that denote no respect whatsoever. But “Bitch” can be used in a respectful, reverential tone, however grudgingly. (Reminds me of a joke. Q: What exactly is the difference between a bitch and a 'ho? A: A 'ho will fuck anybody. A bitch will fuck anybody – except you.)

“Bitch” will also be lobbed in a heartbeat at women who act too erratically or exercise a woman’s prerogative too often. (i.e., “What do these bitches want?”) If a man wants to clarify what he means, he’ll throw in the modifier, “stupid”.

I completely agree that men are being MUCH more contemptuous when they call other men “bitches.” Back in the day, when Ice Cube, Eazy E and Dr. Dre were ranking on each other in songs like No Vaseline they might have used the word bitch, but – check this – they were describing each other as punks and whores of the music industry. Doesn’t mean they exhibited MORE misogynism towards women. Just more contempt for weak-willed men.

I noticed on The Jeffersons that Weezie always adressed George’s mother as “Mother Jefferson.”

Is it common in the African American community to refer to your mother-in-law as “Mother [her last name]”?

TIA

My hyper-WASP family, the older generation uses this “Mother” usage also, although I think ironically sometimes. I seriously doubt this is a black thing versus a regional/generation issue.

The only other TV example I can think of is Mother Winslow from Family Matters, set in Chicago. That supports Collounsbury’s regional/generational surmise. Never in my thirty years have I ever personally met or heard of a black Southern woman called that by her in-laws or neighbors in real life. Maybe if their last name is ‘Jefferson’ it’s different! As generic titles go, “Mrs.”, “Miz” and “Big Mama” are much, much more common.

You’re welcome, Tenar. I was just trying to clarify things. No harm done.

Askia, I’m so honored! Gosh, an actual acronym, LACATST, derived from something I posted. I don’t know what to say. :slight_smile:

Rastahomie, um, I think it depends on what kind of relationship you have with the person. I’ve heard the “Mother Smith” thing used to refer to elderly ladies in church, but there’s no immediate family connection. It’s just a sign of respect for older ladies. Actually now that I think about it, my mom referred to her mother-in-law as Grandma [insert first name], but that’s when she was talking to us kids about our Grandmother. I don’t know if she called her “Mother” or by her first name–I think it’s the latter–when she talked to her or to my dad. I think my dad also referred to his mom by her first name when he talked to my mom or us kids about her, but I can’t remember what he called her to her face. He and his mom were TIGHT like best friends. It wouldn’t surprise me if later in life he called his mom by her first name, and from what I remember about her, she was just this sweet, laid-back little old lady who’d been through HELL, and she didn’t give a damn about formality. I can’t remember what he called my mom’s mom. He probably referred to her as “your mother” or “mother” when he was talking about her to my mom and maybe “your grandmother” when he was talking about her to us kids, but I think he did this because my mom addressed her mother as “Mother.” But see now we gettin’ into some class issues too. My mom was raised very properly in a somewhat snooty, middle class family–her mother was raised by white women–while my daddy was the son of a sharecropper/minister. Now, there ain’t nothing wrong with either background. I just mention it to show how one’s background can affect how one addresses family members. But I digress. I’m not sure what I’d call a potential mother-in-law. It’d depend on what kind of relationship I had with her. Does this make sense because I’m starting to confuse myself? Anyway, don’t believe everything you see on tv. I just said a few posts ago that folks need to think critically about whatever language/images they hear and see presented in the media. Them 70’s shows like “The Jeffersons” and “Good Times” are artificial, constructed to entertain, and they are funny to a point because they exaggerate and/or parodize (Oooh, I just made up a new word! :-)) monolithic perceptions of blackness. While some things in media representations of black culture may ring true to black folks because black folks have input in how they are constructed, these media representations still cannot account for the rich range of cultural practices individual black people and families engage in.

I also wanted to say generally that you SDMBers are making a nice start asking us questions on this message board, but we’re only four + Collounsbury, who’s “passin’” :wink: (Hey, Sugarlump! You can’t hear the inflection in my voice when I say you’re “passin’,” so I just wanted to tell you that my reference to your “passin’” is meant affectionately and with a wry sense of humor at the positions I see you get yourself in.) One way to think critically about black culture is to go out in real life and get to know black folks so that you have real life experience to compare to the crap you see and hear in the media.

Y’all have a nice day.

I think I’ve read this entire thread, but I’ve done so in fits and starts, so I’m sorry if you’ve discussed this already and I’ve missed it …

… Anyway, I’m wondering if any of you guys have been to Britain or Ireland and if so how you found you were treated over here. I’m curious because many (white) people over here view the US as a very racist country, yet nearly every black or Asian-American I’ve known who’s visited over here* has said they’ve experienced more overt racism here than in the States. If you haven’t visited yourself, what have you heard from other blacks (or really, any nonwhite people**) who have?

[sub]*it’s a pretty small sample, which is why I’m asking for more opinions.

** do you find “nonwhite” offensive? I know I’ve heard it called so at least once.
[/sub]

Are you sure it wasn’t anti-American prejudice? Some Brits can get pretty snotty to American tourists.

OTOH, given that there’s an ongoing race riot in Oldham, Lancashire at the moment (right-wing whites v. a largely Pakistani community), it’s hard to say…

I seriously doubt this is what Ruadh’s ‘informants’ are referring to.

Nor do I believe one can seriously question the existance of racism and racialist thought in the British isles.

I would guess that the issue is unexamined racialism.

In North America since the late 1960s at the least old Victorian racialist ideas, speech etc. has been under pressure. Obviously less pluralistic societies (but still imbued with racialism) have not necessarily undergone such.

No, I wouldn’t deny the existence of serious racism in the UK either. I’m just saying that there are other issues which may have been involved.

There are some notable differences between the US and UK in terms of race relations. For example, mixed race couples are much more common and more visible, both in public and on television; these are mostly among “working class” people, although you do see it in middle-class areas to some extent. And of course, it’s much more common in London and other urban areas than in smaller towns.

“Racialism”?

From what I’ve seen on the news, there was a group of right-wing white youths who attacked a number of Asian (Pakistani) homes. The view of the Asian community in Oldham was that the police not only condoned the violence but subsequently further exacerbated the situation by suggesting that other Asians had been responsible. Hence the rioting, first by large groups of Asian youths, and now by groups from both sides of the issue.

I can’t comment on anything dealing with racism in the British Isles toward American Blacks, as I’ve never been there personally. Only a few of my friends have traveled through Heathrow on their way to other parts of Europe or the Caribbean, and if they had tales to tell, they’ve kept them to themselves.

Overt racism only occurs in places and situations where there’s little chance of censure, punishment or rebuke by authorities or one’s peers. Under those climes, people are likely to be as bigoted as they want.

On DWB:

Don’t know how much of it was young kid in fancy car vs. young blackkid in fancy car. But I was once pulled over within two blocks of having picked my grandmothers car up from the shop. I think location and vehicle, and maybe even number of occupants play a high role in those incidents.
I’ve been to the UK

In fact I was in Coventry in January (does it alway rain like that). I haven’t noticed much overt racism, though I’ve seen “the look”. I did notice that I didn’t see any black cops (bobbies I think you call them) though it seemed to be enough blacks around, at least in London anyway.

I don’t know. I suspect I have.
I’ve never gotten a ticket while driving (parking tickets are another story) but I have been pulled over about 10-15 times. And it was always while driving in a predominantly white area at night. The reasons have been things like I looked lost or I looked like I might be having car trouble. And admittedly, would generally get the former when driving the speed limit on streets where nobody drives the speed limit (out of fear of getting pulled over) and the time I was told the latter, I was driving a car with a very nasty stick, so it was kind of jumpy. And I might have looked weird. Who knows? One summer, after getting followed & pulled over several times driving home late from work (we were putting in 15 hour days) I spent a lot of time thinking “well, on the main street there are more cop cars, but on the side streets, I’ll look more suspicious if I do run into one.”

I’ve also been followed around stores, when I notice it, I’ll generally spend the next 15 minutes touching everything, picking stuff up, moving it around, seeing how many people I can get focused on me instead of their other customers (I’ve even seen other people shoplifting, but the owners are so focused on making sure that I don’t, they fail to notice). And then of course, going to the manager to complain and explain exactly why I was never going to enter their establishment again.

Walking While Black --A Love Story

When I was in college my best friend dated a guy who lived in Roslyn on Long Island. Roslyn is a somewhat exclusive nabe. Both my friend and her boyfriend are black.

One day she goes to visit his parents. They start the 15 min walk from the LIRR. The police stop them after 5 mins. The conversation as per my GF:

Police: What are you doing?
Boyfriend: I’m on my way home, officer.
Police: Where do you live.
BF: 125 1st St.
Police: Let’s see some ID.
BF shows police his college ID.
Police: You sure you aint lost?
BF: I’m sure. I walk this way all the time.
Police: How 'bout we give you a ride home.
BF: Sure!

Later, when Girlfriend is recounting this story, BF chimes in: “Yeah, the police in Roslyn are great! They give me a ride home at least once a month.”

LACATST!

The stories I was told involved being shouted racial abuse by people who passed them by in the streets, and wouldn’t even have heard their American accents.

Also, as a (white) American myself, not once in the cumulative 2 years I’ve lived in Britain and Ireland have I encountered anything of the sort. The fact that several of my (nonwhite) American friends have strongly suggests to me there’s something beyond anti-Americanism involved.