From what I’ve heard, Cruising did for gay men what Basic Instinct did for lesbians. sigh
Anyway, Turp: We gay men love women, mostly because straight girls are often nicer to us than straight guys. A good fag hag is an angel of mercy and a joy forever.
Gay doesn’t mean blind 
Attractive and/or otherwise pleasing doesn’t necessarily mean the same thing as arousing…someone -can- think you’re cute without getting horny about it (isn’t that the difference between a compliment and sexual harassment?)
As for what types might be considered attractive/pleasing, I imagine you’d get as many answers on that as there are replies. Personally speaking, I find the same qualities attractive in both genders…tall, intelligent, moderately lean/lithe: not muscular or fat, but not half-starved either (that last only applies to the ladies) and generally of sleek appearance (read: not hairy grin). I guess you could say I like average people except for that second condition 
The only real difference in what I find attractive in females and the “general image of an attractive female” is that I’m very much against the usual exaggerated qualities: big butts, big breasts, ‘wanton pouty looks’ and incessant flirting…the kind you’d find in porn, in other words. The “top-heavy” types really turn me off, but I’ll happily ogle what others would call “flat-chested”…as long as they’re wearing shorts. 
From what you told us about her coming onto you, and then turning against you at a later date, it sounds to me like she’s just plain confused. To me, it sounds like her feelings are freaking her out, and that she’s using hostility as a defense. I may be wrong, but it sounds that way to me.
As to whether or not it’s worth patching things up, only you can decide that. All I can suggest is that, if you do, tell her that if she ever gives you crap like that again, there won’t be a second chance. That’s the rule I use, and it works for me.
Good Lord, is this thing still on?
Any more questions, O Teeming Millions?
Actually, it looks like I may have skipped a couple of questions myself. I should get to that…
Esprix
I think a part of the reason for the hate is that the same type of person who is a homophobe is generally also derogetory towards women (The so called “weaker sex”, yeah, right!) This is the only explanation I can think of for why “blow me” is also considered an insult: It’s generally an act performed on a man by a woman. Therefore, if another man does this, he’s a woman, and inferior :rolleyes:
Homophobes are, at the basic level, prejudiced (duh). To me, prejudice has always been equated with fear, especially of the unknown. To the simpleminded, nonstraight people are wierd, and therefore scary. Of course, a real man can’t admit to being afraid, especially of a “girly” (See first paragraph) man.
So the fear turns to hate. Hurt the thing you fear, and you’re not afraid of it anymore. Or at least, you can tell yourself that.
I suspect homophobia is simular to racism, or prejudism towards any minority group, coupled with a healthy dose of mysogany.
Another aspect of homophobia is that homosexuals might try gasp hitting on a straight man, and therefore call that man’s masculinity into question (I have an otherwise rational friend who still thinks this way). This part ties in nicely with the Danimal’s theory.
Tie in the Scapegoat Solution (All of societies ills are THEIR fault!), and it becomes easy to see how the lazy thinkers can fear and hate queers (Feels wierd using that term!).
Of course, this is all MHO, and worth every cent you paid to read it.
Just MHO, and well worth the money you paid to read it.
'Sprix, would you mind elucidating this once more for this poor asexual gal?
Quote from This thread.
Certainly, my darling.
As discussed in your linked thread, the gay rags are full of personal ads that say “no fats or fems” or “straight-acting.” Well, what, pray tell, is “straight-acting?” Married to a woman? Has 2.5 kids? Owns a white picket fence? Goes postal at his day job when he’s stressed?
Oh, no, wait, I think we know - somebody who “acts straight,” i.e., could pass for straight in the workplace. This further implies they don’t “act gay,” which ostensibly means is a flaming drag queen who wears rainbow-styled pants and hands out business cards to passers-by that says, “Hello, I’m a homosexual.”
:rolleyes:
There is so much implied internalized homophobia in the phrase “straight-acting” that it turns my stomach every time I see or hear the phrase. To quote one of my favorite gay singing duos, Romanovsky & Phillips:
But does that mean our masculine gay brothers should all be whitewashed with this demeaning paintbrush? Certainly not! Some of them aren’t “straight-acting” but they are rather butch or masculine in the traditional senses of the word - they’re not into showtunes, they don’t go out to the clubs, and they actually know who won the Superbowl yesterday. Do they do this on purpose? No. They just are. The fact that they could “pass for straight” is an accident, not intentional. And most of them are comfortable enough to recognize their own unique blend of masculine and feminine traits - they may be a construction worker by trade, but they may also know all the words to “People,” even if no one would believe it until they sang it themselves. These are the real men, IMHO - they’re not afraid to admit they know those lyrics, and laugh about the fact that they do.
So, to further quote R&P:
Esprix
**Esprix wrote:
Good Lord, is this thing still on? **
Esprix, I warned you about using those Duracell batteries! 
**Deacons Trucked wrote:
I dont see how “gay” is gender-specific. If a woman says “I am gay”…that means she is attracted to women, right? If you say a woman you know is gay, that means she’s into women, right? I guess its just a matter of perception. To you, “gay” means man to man, to me, “queer” is offensive, clique-ish, and yucky.**
In all modern, recent uses of the term (and by recent, I mean within the past 20 years), I’ve always seen the phrase; gay men and lesbians. I agree, the term gay in and of itself isn’t sex specific, but popular usage has turned it into an adjective rather than a noun.
Add to this the attempts at inclusivity; adding in our Bi brothers and sisters as well as the Transgendered and Transsexual communities. Even cutting it down to GLBT can be a mouthful. Add to this the young radicals who adopt the term queer as a way of taking back the word and using it as a non-sex specific way of naming the GLBT community; you get the current usage.
And taking back the term queer does work rather well. Everytime some basher tries to insult me with “You fucking queer!” I just turn around and stare him down (they’re inevitably male) and say “That’s right, sweet-heart and I’m Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabulous at it!” They tend to be at a loss for words at that point. They weren’t expecting a war of words; they were expecting the “faggot” or “queer” to slink away. Taking their insult and agreeing with it confuses them and puts them on the defensive, a position they’re not use to being in.
Sounds like you’re quoting from my post in the linked thread–thanks for the compliment, woo hoo! Somehow, when
folks talk about “real men,” I keep thinking about a gay Pinocchio:
“Gepetto, when I grow up, I want the Butch Fairy to turn me into a real man, with leather chains, a Harley, and a deep voice!”
“Atsa all right, Pinocchio, but righta now stay behind me and keepa telling me lies.”
Well Esprix (Espirit, Espiricks), what is wrong with me that I like guys who “unintentionally” pass for straight? I’m glad that I like gay guys who dont know the words to “People” (is that a song??..dont know it), who know who won the Superbowl, who dont go out to the clubs, who often weigh 230# at 5’-10", who hunt and fish and have a hairy chest? Whats wrong with me that I enjoy straight men infinitely more than the general populace of gay men, and therefore I like gay men who dont act like flaming faggots, as sooo many of them do? That I like men who enjoy Metallica more than Barbra Streisand? Who would rather go to a sports bar than a gay club?
Since I relate to straight men so much, I dont know how to describe the gay men I like better than “straight-acting”!!!
And so many straight men friends enjoy me and relate to me, and they say, “I had no idea you were gay!”…I, for one, am proud of the fact that my persona doesnt blatantly pronounce, “I’m gay!”, so how else can I describe myself, but as “straight-acting”???
And the gay men I like tend to be the types who you wouldnt think in a million years were gay. So what else are they but “straight-acting”?
I dont understand or believe in the concept of “gay pride”…all I know is “self-pride”, and MY self-pride includes the fact that I like men who are REAL, who dont feel like they have to fit society’s definition of “gay”.
And yet, you like guys who do fit into society’s definition of “straight?”
Me, I’m straight, but not in the least butch. If I set off people’s gaydar, does that mean I’m not “straight-acting?” Or am I only “straight-acting” when I belch, fart, yell at the TV and work on my car?
You know, Deac, that produces an almost perfect counterpoint to Matt_mcl’s Pit rant on gay men who stand in judgment over him because he is not living up to the he-man gymrat image. (And I hope you recruited a couple of those husky macho types to help Tygr and Jkayla with their move!)
Taking the two threads together, it occurs to me that what you’re both saying is that you want the freedom to be yourselves – not to have to live up to someone else’s stereotype of what you “ought” to be. And I’ll cast my vote in favor of that. I could go on at length about the annoyance of being judged less than acceptable for not meeting people’s stereotypes, but so could almost everybody else who posts on this board.
First, I have to say that I am a guy much like Deacons
Trucked describes–I spend time outdoors, I’m masculine, I can change my own oil, complete with muscles and a hairy chest. Where we differ is our treatment of the less macho members of the gay world. I don’t see where DT gets off calling other gay men “flaming faggots.” It’s quite bad enough that all gay men and lesbians are marginalized by society, we don’t need to do it to ourselves. DT’s remarks remind me of how light-skinned blacks used to apply the paper bag test to exclude dark-skinned blacks. We don’t need
to mimic the bigotry of society-at-large.
Deacons Trucked, do you have sex with men? Welcome to “flaming faggot”-ville! Believe me, heteros don’t care how butch a guy is if he sucks dick. You’re still a homo to them. I’m a masculine gay man who has no problem with radical faeries like Matt; his effeminacy is part of who he is, just as my masculinity is part of who I am. Matt can be as lavender as he likes, it harms me not one jot. On the contrary, we can never be free to be ourselves if we don’t extend that same freedom to others.
Some queer theorists include men who are heterosexual but femme in their definition of “queer”, on the theory that they are oppressed due to non-compliance with gender roles. I think this is a very interesting point of view.
What boggles my mind most is how people actually care about who’s “acting butch” and who’s “acting queer”. To me, all I see is the “acting”. I’m no more interested in the puffed-up leather goon than I am in the affected-lisp limpwrist…they both strike me as intentionally perpetuating their own ridiculous stereotypes. I just can’t see how someone’s natural behavior would actually be so exaggerated.
But then, I suppose I and my friends might just be exceptions to the rules here. I’m a gay geek with a thing for other gay geeks. We don’t really fit into any of the ‘normal’ rules. We know neither Superbowl nor Barbara Streisand…but we could put some university CS departments to shame. We’re fondly affectionate without being idiotically gushy, but without being cold and without that stupid “forced distance” that mainstream straight men feel is so necessary. It’s just kind of a natural easy-going thing, and I never heard anyone actually -use- the terms “butch” and “femme” until delving into threads like this on this board…it was always the kind of oddity that was heard of but never seen, up til now.
So I guess I’ll “Ask The Gay Guy” myself (as strange as that seems) What’s the deal with the acting? And why this apparent holy war between the two extremes? Surely the mainstream homosexual population isn’t really polarized to just those two opposite ends of the spectrum? (or is it just that those are the most visible?)
Oh, not this question again…
gay pride /gej prajd/ n.phr. being proud of yourself and of fellow gay people for having successfully stood up to years of oppression and abuse. Does not mean “pride in being gay”.
Does that settle the issue? I hope?
Oh, for heaven’s sake. As I’ve tried to make abundantly clear in the pit thread, I’m not perpetuating anybody’s goddamn stereotypes. I’m just being my own self. Whatever stereotypes may be floating around are conforming to me. Not vice versa.
Just to lighten things up after this intense exchange on social expectations vs. personal taste stuff, while reviewing the Charlotte gay weekly, I ran across a line in a column that made me laugh out loud, and made me think of Matt_mcl’s quotation collection:
Or how much you’ll have to shovel.
??I dunno, it seemed funny.
I have a question: Are there still laws against homosexuals “acts”?
Are they ever put into play?
If so, why aren’t people out there trying to change the laws?
I hope this doesn’t sound stupid, but I am not up on laws.
In general, anal or oral sex with someone over the age of consent in private has been decriminalized in most states, but there are still a few in which it is illegal – largely a felony. North Carolina is one. As I remember, there are something like 12 where it’s illegal. A few of these states permit heterosexual acts of those descriptions but prohibit homosexual acts.
In something like 30 states, there is no protection to being gay. Gay people are not a “protected class” under hate crimes law, it is not prohibited grounds for firing or refusing housing to, and so on. Whether these laws are appropriate is something interesting to debate on another thread; that they adversely affect gay people is something quite clear and not subject to argument.
State laws rather than Federal are the forum for such statutes in most cases. Maybe Jodi or Sua Sponte can discuss what the distinction is. And hopefully somebody has links to what laws are in place where; unfortunately, I don’t.