In Canada, gay people have been “read into” the Charter of Rights and Freedoms by a court case named Egan. As for crime, gay sex was decriminalized by Pierre Trudeau as minister of justice under Pearson (les gais et lesbiennes vous saluent Pierre). As it stands, gay and straight sex fall under the same laws.
Although some of this was address in matt’s previously-linked post, I wanted to dissect and discuss here as well, 'cause it’s my thread, durn it. 
There’s not a darn thing wrong with you.
I’m glad you’re glad. Gotta go with what you’re happy with.
Ah, here’s the breakdown - now we’ve slipped from “I like masculine men/I do not prefer effeminate men” to “I like straight guys/I hate gay men.”
Deacons, if you like straight men so much, then you’re never going to get laid, 'cause - and this is the important part - straight men aren’t interested in dating other men. That’s why they’re straight. The type of man you’re interested in is a masculine gay man. By calling masculine gay men “straight-acting” (and, by default, effeminate men “gay-acting”) you’re buying into a whole lot of stereotypes about what is straight, what is gay, what is masculine and what is feminine. Surely you’re not that short-sighted.
There are plenty of happily gay men, secure in their orientation as you are, that do not act stereotypically gay. Similarly, as andros pointed out, there are plenty of happily straight men, secure in their own orientation, that do not act stereotypically straight. How one acts and whose one’s affections are meant for can, indeed, be two different things.
Sure you do - masculine. But sucking cock, last time I checked, isn’t “straight-acting.”
Why are you proud of this? As you say, self-pride is an important thing, but if you’re proud of who you are (i.e., masculine), then what’s wrong with an openly gay person like matt being proud to be who he is (i.e., feminine)?
Masculine. I still maintain that “straight-acting,” although convenient shorthand, buys into way too many stereotypes of what is and isn’t masculine, what is and isn’t “ok” for gay people and straight people to be.
Nobody would ever take away your pride in yourself. At the same time, no one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to march down Main Street in June. Are you the “live and let live” type, or do pride parades “give ‘normal’ gay guys like me a bad rep?”
Personally, although matt makes a good point about community pride, I do believe in gay pride as much as self pride. YMMV, of course…
Esprix
Sure, to some people it’s a role to play, but then, that’s normal for anyone, gay or straight. If anything, the gay community gives one a bit more freedom to be comfortable playing that role than one might have if one were more, shall we say, “mainstream.” I mean, how many people, gay or straight, go to their 9-to-5 and are “valued members of the team,” only to become a completely different person at home and/or socially?
But make no mistake - there are plenty of people to whom hypermasculinity or hyperfemininity, for whatever reasons, come completely naturally. It may be a foreign concept to you, but don’t assume everyone’s acting.
When I meet folks out, I try and take them for their face value. Whatever they’re presenting to me is what they want me to see anyway, so I’m not going to try to figure them out right away unless it starts to turn into a friendship or a romantic interest. If we all saw under each other’s masks that fast, parties wouldn’t be any fun.
Mmmm… gay geeks…
Yeah, my close circle of friends was like this when we were in college, but we learned an awful lot as the years went by. Still, among ourselves, it’s amazing how “not normal” we all are in so many ways, and it’s equally amazing how non-judgemental we all are of each other and how much we really do care, trust and support each other (even when we’re sniping at each other).
For the same reason Democrats and Republicans can’t always get along. Or Christians and Ahteists. Or Isrealis and Jews. Or me and my sister. Human nature.
Oh, there are plenty other ends to the spectrum - lesbian issues, transgendered issues, youth issues, race issues…
See that, everybody? The gay community is just as fucked up as everyone else!
Esprix
Matt sed:
Interesting indeed. But it’s a more liberal definition of “queer” than I care for. I mean, femme straights get enough grief as it is–I can’t see them embracing “queer” when it’s been used as a pejorative against them.
I dunno . . I’ll ask the Gay Guys. Matt, Goboy, Exprix, et al.: How would y’all feel if a straight guy decided to call himself queer?
Why not? The queers did it.
I’ve always assumed that “queer” included our straight friends/allies/angels/whatever you want to call them. As long as he can handle getting mistaken for being gay all the time, hey, it’s his romantic life. (For an example, see The Onion’s “Why Do All These Homosexuals Keep Sucking My Cock?”)
Esprix
“We’re here! We’re gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered, transsexual, two-spirited, androgynous … oh, forget it.”
Or, as the ad for a particular brand of liquor, says,
“We’re here! We’re Cuervo!”
“Another liberation movement up Madison Avenue without a paddle.” - Mo, in Alison Bechdel’s Dykes to Watch Out For
“Another liberation movement up Madison Avenue without a paddle.” - Mo, in Alison Bechdel’s Dykes to Watch Out For
First off if I use a label for someone that’s offensive it’s my ignorance and not an insult just tell me where I screwed up.
How come some lesbian couples are made up of one very feminine looking woman, and one very butch looking?
My question is about what attracts a woman to another woman that looks and acts like more of a man that any man I know. They seem to be way “over the top” super macho.
I have taken a WAG about when men seek out a man that dresses and acts like a woman.
My guess is that they may not want to fully admit they are gay and can sort of hide from themselves.
I don’t know if these men are called transvestites or drag queens but they are also “over the top” as far as acting extraordinarily feminine. I think that’s all part of the façade that the straight/gay guy is looking for.
But in the women I don’t think that’s it.
I can see the butch angle; they are like men and are attracted to pretty females.
I don’t understand the other angle, if a woman is attracted to macho guys why is she a lesbian?
What can you tell me about this?
For the same reason that some lesbian couples are made up of two femmes or two butches or two women in the middle; because people are different.
There’s a difference between a transgendered woman and a drag queen. Transgendered women live as women constantly, in their day-to-day lives, and are not usually “over the top” as you say. Drag queens, who are probably whom you’re thinking of when you say “over the top”, typically are non-transgendered gay men who live as men in their day-to-day lives but don the frocks for a special occasion. As RuPaul said, “I do not impersonate females! How many women do you know who wear six-inch heels, four-foot hair, and skin-tight sequinned gowns?”
Because she’s not attracted to butch guys, but to butch women. You don’t stop being a woman because you’re butch. (You stop being a woman if you’re transgendered.)
Butch doesn’t really mean “acting like a man”; for example, I saw a cop in the metro the other day who I could tell was butch before I could tell whether they were a man or a woman. If butch meant mannish, I should have thought they were a man to begin with, but I didn’t.
Likewise, some gay men are attracted to femme guys like myself without being attracted to women; that’s partly because being femme doesn’t mean you’re not a man, and partly because being femme doesn’t mean “acting like a woman” (as if there were such a thing); I in fact know very few women who act femme like I do.
[QUOTE} How come some lesbian couples are made up of one very feminine looking woman and one very butch looking? [\QUOTE}
Ah, yes. The eternal question. The simplest answer is, have you never seen a couple (of any gender composition) which consisted of one very tall person and one very short one? Or one fat and one thin? Sometimes love just happens. Not everyone who falls in love does so based on what “type” they prefer.
More to follow.
I’m glad this thread got revived today, because I have something I wanted to be sure the SD gay community was aware of:
My home parish, St. Mark’s Episcopal Church in Raleigh, is beginning the process of serving as the national pilot (guinea pig) parish for determining how to be a “safe space” for GBLT people (as well as other marginalized, discriminated-against groups – the GBLT issue and our General Convention of 2000’s resolution to address it in several ways including parishes designating themselves as welcoming, “safe space” locations, being one of them. And my wife is going to serve as facilitator for the task force or whatever that ends up pulling together how we make our response to that issue. (Needless to say, I’ll be as much help to her in that role as I can.) This whole thing was just decided at a meeting before our service this morning.
We finally can corporately do something worthwhile besides just being there and caring while others are hurtful. And I made it a point to say we needed to be “noisy” about doing this – illustrating it with the point Esprix and Freyr made to me last year that the noisy homophobes are getting all the press.
Keep me and us in your prayers, good wishes, or whatever you usually send in place of them, please.
That makes entirely too much sense.
I’d now like to say something to cover my tracks like
“I already knew that” or “just checking.”
**waxteeth wrote:
My question is about what attracts a woman to another woman that looks and acts like more of a man that any man I know. They seem to be way “over the top” super macho.**
Waxteeth, you’ve asked one question that doesn’t have a good answer. What causes a personal attraction? That’s all based on personal experience and desire. What makes a person desires vanilla over chocolate? What makes a person like green as opposed to blue? What makes you find a particular trait in a partner desirable over others?
**Polycarp wrote:
We finally can corporately do something worthwhile besides just being there and caring while others are hurtful. And I made it a point to say we needed to be “noisy” about doing this – illustrating it with the point Esprix and Freyr made to me last year that the noisy homophobes are getting all the press.
Keep me and us in your prayers, good wishes, or whatever you usually send in place of them, please.**
Poly, my partner is getting the altar all set up as I write this. We’ll begin the rites of purification soon and right after the Full Moon, we’ll do the blood sacrifice. If you’d be so good as to ship us any one of the four options: the body of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Fred Phelps or Antonio Scalia, it would be immensely helpful.
The last time we did this, we used a look-alike made of Spam (hey, it was my partner’s idea!). Unfortunately, the Demons of the Netherworld weren’t pleased. We lost four Accolytes that evening. The Old Ones want the real thing!
Are we live?
waxteeth, I hope my learned cohorts were able to enlighten you as to the broad diversity (no pun intended) of human sexuality. As I’m often wont to say, you can’t help what you’re attracted to.
Polycarp, leave it to you to break new spiritual ground. Much luck. If you’re interested, the UU’s, of course, have been welcoming for many years now, and they developed a workshop series called “The Welcoming Congregation,” which I’ve helped facilitate three different times at three different churches. There are many resources available at the UUA bookstore at uua.org, including the workshop booklet itself.
And Freyr, how on earth did you get the UU initiation rites? I thought they were locked away on Beacon Street in Boston? I’m going to have a chat with my High Holy Grand Poo… er, I mean, minister about this!
Esprix
ok gay guy here’s one for you.
I’ve wondered about this question, but since I don’t know
anyone who’s gay…
At the end of a straight marriage they say something like:
‘…I now pronounce you huaband and wife’
What do they say in a gay marriage:
‘…I now pronounce you huaband and husband?’
‘…I now pronounce you married?’
Um… I got married in a pagan ceremony last year. In my case, the high priestess said: “You are now bound together by love.”
Worked for me.
I just couldn’t get him to say ‘obey’ though, dammit.
Depends on the ceremony. Most of the ones I’ve been to (decidedly a limited number) have been loosely based on the traditional marriage ceremony, but, like all brides, I guess, the couple wanted to do something different (although, IMHO, no matter how hard they try, all weddings are the same - I’ve gone to none that stick out in my mind as “way cool,” but they’re all fun, at least). Most often the vows are thoroughly rewritten, usually by the couple, and end with their own unique pronouncement of love. I’ve even see the minister say, “May I present Messrs. Thomas and Joseph Smith-Jones,” as they decided to hyphenate. I can’t recall specifically, however, the vows that may have included a riff on the pronouncement of husband and wife. If I had to pick a phrase, I think I’d go with “husband and husband,” as I fully intend to refer to my (hopefully someday) life partner as my husband - I personally don’t care for “spouse,” “partner” or “lover.”
Esprix
Thanks guys! I don’t really know why that question had
bugged me…I guess it was just one of thoes little
questions that is just there…