Ask the Gay Guy IV!

And, really, who cares if it’s a choice? If somebody chooses to dye their hair purple or believe their cat is a god or rides to work on a unicycle or wears a dress or sleeps with another consenting adult - who cares? Last time I checked we were afforded such basic human freedoms.

Although it seems reasonable to go with the understanding that for the vast majority of gay men, lesbians, bisexuals and transgendered folk their sexual orientation is innate, unchangable and not a choice, it’s perfectly allowable by anyone’s standards that for some, it is. Big whoop. Be all you can be…

Esprix

And what about Stonewall?
I just read this book by a “christian” talking about family values, and he mentions it saying “back when gays got violent and threw rocks at police”.
Okay, thats Not all there was to it. He makes it sound like they did it just for fun.
What was the uprising about?
When was it?
Was it what caused (or at least started) the fight for rights re: hiring et. al>?

Long story short about Stonewall. It was a gay bar, primarily for drag queens in Greenwich Villiage in New York City. This was the 1960s, when you couldn’t really legitimately operate or attend a gay bar without police harassment, and the Stonewall, like a lot of other gay bars at the time, couldn’t get a liquor license, so it had mob connections and survived by paying off the police, but still was subject to a lot of raids.

One night, around midnight, the bar was raided, and the patrons who were being led to the police vans, instead of going along, fought back, barricading themselves in the bar and throwing things at the police trying to arrest them. At this, a crowd gathered. Backup was called, and two hours later, the riot was put down. Here’s a less than complementary story about it from the New York Daily News:

http://www.jaxgaypride.org/stonhist.htm

Why was Stonewall important? Prior to that, the gay rights movement had gone out of its way to be nonconfrontational, and emphasise gay people’s similarity to straights. After Stonewall, there was a new militancy, that drew from the black power and anti war movements. There came to be a lot more emphasis on direct action. You can even see the appearance of people at gay rights protests change. Pre-Stonewall, picketers would all dress in suits and ties, and march, and after Stonewall, you started seeing much less uniformity in dress and behavior. You also started seeing gay activists discuss removing homosexuality as a mental disorder, and decrease demands for equality. Pre-Stonewall groups, like the various homophile organizations and Mattachene, on the other hand, had much less ambitious goals. After Stonewall, there was also the idea that coming out of the closet was a good thing…that it was important to let other people know you were gay, which was another change from pre-Stonewall attitudes of “Look, let us be gay and we won’t bring it up.” It didn’t create the gay rights movement, but it did radicalize and spur it to activism.

Stonewall was in 1969, btw. It was, all things considered, in itself, a little incident…nothing like the White Night riots, which was the other time gays rioted, but it had a big effect.

Ok, I need to know…what are “queer ideals”?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Captain Amazing *
**

Um… All men are created fabulous? Life, liberty, and the pursuit of matt_mcl?

That sort-of proves my point! (sort-of)

I don’t hang out with gay guys, because… well I don’t know any. I goto high school, and it is very unpopular to even exhibit slight hints of being gay, let alone being full out-of-the-closet homosexuals.

For example, there is a sophomore that everyone thinks is gay because he wears sweaters.

Also, you hear things being called ‘gay’ when they do something they are not supposed to do. For example, “That !@#$ #@%^ gay Coke machine just took my dollar!”

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by K3v1n *
**

No, it doesn’t prove your point.

What you are speaking of is the way terms about gay people are used perjoratively against anyone and anything someone doesn’t like. This is bigotry. This is no different than when someone is trying to haggle and is told to ‘stop jewing them.’

You are speaking of prejudice that you see and stereotypes that you think are representative of a group. This is no different than if you thought all black people smoked crack, hated white people, and collected welfare. No group is homogenous, and to act as if they are is a fallacy.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by K3v1n *
**

Well, I guess my question to you would be, how do you know you don’t know any gay guys? You could have gay friends and just not know it.

Bump

Just wondering if I’m ever gonna get an answer to my question.

This means you, matt_mcl :smiley:

In the new Waldenbooks store in downtonw Cleveland, theres now a section called Gay&Lesbian, just like the Sci-Fi and Biography sections!
cool

You’re kidding. It took them this long? In Cleveland, no less? Sheesh.

Well, one small step for queers… :wink:

Esprix

Esprix and the cohorts I read almost all your threads in terms of this issue and I admire as well as applaud your great insight and responses to things. Good job, guys.

I have an inquiry, well, not so much an inquiry but odd feelings.

I’m comfortable with my sexuality, I’m not openly gay or anything. But I’m pretty comfortable with it. However, in contrast…being gay hampers me from doing ANYTHING happily. Why? I have the best boyfriend in the world (although I like him more for his looks than as a person…this makes me feel horrible since it seems like I have vain values) and things seem all around good.
When I’m depressed I add gay to my depression. When I’m out having a good time with my friends I think of my sexaulity than I feel so distant.
I have become so aloof that today when my friends called me outside, I went but BARELY conversed. I was thinking of my sexuality. These feelings are all “cured” when my boyfriend is present, although when he’s absent (at work or with other friends) than they come back.
I’m slowly losing my friends and gradually becoming this recluse. It needs to stop.
I’ve been through the phases, I accepted my sexuality since I was 11.
So what’s the problem here? For the record, I only came out to one friend. And she was VERY cool with it. We don’t see each other much but when we do she’s still as great as she was before (I might add that we don’t discuss things pertaining my sexuality though).

I would say your problem is keeping secrets from your friends Kunimitsu. You feel like you can’t be yourself with them IMHO, and lack of trust hurts friendships.

Is appreciating a painting more shallow than appreciating a book? Vanity is something you can only do with yourself, not others. You shouldn’t feel horrible for something that you just do naturally unless it hurts other people.

I’m going to agree with Sterra on this one. Coming out is hard. But living with a secret like that is, in most cases, more difficult. Especially since you have a boyfriend; if you’re both seeing each other on the sly, it can make you both feel devalued, as if you’re not worth telling the world about.

If you’re prepared for a period of chaos in your life, you might want to consider telling your friends, one at a time. Be gentle with them; it’s tough for them too. Keep in mind, they thought they knew you.

Even when you’re out, it can still get to you sometimes. This is a very heterocentric culture, and being reminded frequently that you’re in a minority can get you down. But at least when you’re out, you can talk with your friends about your real feelings.

Hope this helps.

Kunimitsu, I normally hesitate to tell other people when to come out. But I have to say, just from your description, it seems like it might be time for you. You’re losing your friends and withdrawing socially, you’re often depressed, and you’re having a hard time integrating your sexuality with the rest of your life. This would be much less likely to happen if you were out.

What’s the worst that could happen if you do come out, at least to your friends? You might lose them, yes, but you’re losing them anyway. And the best that could happen is that they will understand why you’ve been withdrawn, meaning you’ll actually regain your friends, not to mention a lot of confidence in your ability to live a normal, happy life no matter what your sexual preference.

(Note: if coming out could honestly put your life in danger, I think that’s a good reason to delay it. By this I don’t mean the standard risks we all run being gay, but rather the impact someone specific’s homophobia can have on your life. For example, if you’re financially dependent on your parents and you know there’s a good chance they’ll cut you off and throw you out if they know you’re gay, you might want to work on getting independence, then come out.)

Maybe - Esprix or someone? - we should start a ‘coming out’ thread, where we could all tell what happened when we did. Sometimes just reading the wide variety of stories and hearing the follow up (I survived, I’m happier now, whatever) is very helpful to people who are afraid to come out.

Start with just one person, the person you think will take it best. That person can help you plan the strategy for the next, and the next. And good luck.

I’ve seen the pink triangle symbol used both point up and point down. Is there supposed to be some difference in meaning?

Kalash: Yes, probably that the one pointing up was drawn by an inattentive draughtsperson :slight_smile:

:bump:

Again.

Still waiting…

(Idly looking around the room, drumming my fingers on the table, whistling softly to myself…)

Do you keep asking because you’re genuinely interested in pursuing this topic, you want to annoy matt, or you have a hard-on for Camile Paglia?

Ever curious…

Esprix