Just some factual questions
-Is the clientele mostly young men or is it more diversified in age?
-Have there been cases where STDs have been reported in these clubs-for comparison see the fact that the US porn industry has had reports of HIV in some of its “performers”
-Are the women sometimes abused or maltreated or use human trafficking rings (not in all brothels obviously)
-Why do you use ones in Germany, if (if I remember correctly) prostitution is legal in Germany?
if a “customer” is hideously unattractive, will they be refused entry?
But you say that if she calls a stop to the proceedings after agreeing to accommodate a client but before completing the standard package - so say before he gets to perform cunnilingus - she not only has to refund his money (which I think is fair) but she also gets a black mark against her/warning from management. It’s that black mark/warning that I have a problem with. The worker should be able to refuse a sex act at any time, with the consequence being that she loses the pay for that act and potentially a future customer.
This is a big area where sex work differs from standard employment - no third party (the club management in this case) has the right to compel consent in this way any more than the partner/client does. This “minimum package deal” thing seems to make things more pleasant for the client but at the expense of full agency for the sex worker. “Just work at another club” may be a solution for an individual worker, but just like in any other type of employment there need to be protections in place so that employers/hiring parties don’t trample on worker rights in the name of profits.
There is one club that even states on its site that cum in mouth is 25 and swallowing another 25…In most clubs it is up to the girls what they do with a mouthfull
Bolding mine. Forgive my misreading then but it was the bolded area which gave me my misimpression. If a girl is not allowed to make up her own mind as to what to do with the cum in her mouth, I would interpret that as being forced to do something with it.
Americans are more than welcome, they distort the price…ehhh tip well:) As far as I know most Americans go to the clubs near Frankfurt (which are also my favourites btw) because of the large airport nearby. The clubs in NRW are mostly visited by Germans, Dutch, Belgian and French people. In the Hessen (Frankfurt) clubs you find many more nationalities (among which, English and American). Lately there have been a lot of Italians who can fly cheaply and try to copy their fearless leader Berlusconi by having their own ‘Bungabunga’ parties.
Since I don’t want to be advertising or anything I’m going to be as vague as possible, but there is a agency that arranges trips for non-Germans with the sole purpose of visiting these clubs.
Thanks for the clarification, this wasn’t here when I started writing my previous post. I appreciate your comments about kissing, but really, I think that that kind of negotiation actually does need to be done directly client to worker for each interaction, not indirectly between the client and the club management, to ensure that each encounter is indeed fully consensual and non-abusive. I would imagine that actual negotiation of terms cuts down on the fantasy element of seduction (eye contact>>cuddling>>playful banter>>retire to a room>>pay$$>>have your fun times) but I do think it’s a necessary element.
You mention that many of the sex workers are from outside Germany, as are you. Is there often a language barrier and if so does this contribute to misunderstandings about kissing etc?
Good point, after rereading the quote I understand your interpretation. It is not what I was trying to say though (and not the way it is in reality). I was trying to point out that in this club (if the girl is ok with it) they have different prices depending on what happens with the ejaculate, while most other clubs only set the prices till the point of orgasm and anything afterwards is up to the girl.
I should have been more precise in my wording, you and Clockwork can shake hands agian and blame it on me;)
Oh I’ll never be right in his eyes…
(what fun would he have then?)
There can be a language barrier, but that is mostly of importance when you have a conversation. The girls will learn all the words that matter for the job pretty quickly.
I must also say that I can’t imagine going to a room with a girl I can’t talk to, maybe in my first few visits, but not anymore. Almost all my session nowadays start with a bit of joking and talking about whatever, if this isn’t happening, I’ll probably make up an excuse and go somewhere else.
Most girls will at least speak some German or English. As a Dutchman, I speak both languages well enough to have these basic conversations. And I regularly ask the Romanian girls (for some reason I always end up with Romanian girls) to teach me some words/sentances. Besides that I also speak a couple other languages that come in handy every now and then. It is funny how you can always pick out the Dutch and Flemish (they are even better at their languages than we are) guys in a club because they try/speak different languages as needed. The Italians, French and some Germans just speak their own language, no matter what the girl is answering. These guys miss out on half the fun.
But its till happens that you just can’t comunicate with a (let’s say Hungarian) girl, but that usually also means I won’t take her to a room.
I thought I’d respond to this as well. On the one hand I agree with you, on the other hand I don’t. I think any icebear will agree with me that if you have to ask explicitly whether a girl kisses, it won’t be any good. Usually you get to this point by either suggesting she is a good kisser or asking what she likes to do on the room. The girls you want to take to the room (ie the girl that are good) will see where you’re going and respond by just kissing you instead of saying that they will. In the clubs where every girl kisses, you can just focus on the enthousiasm in general and whether there is a ‘click’; if this is the case the kissing will be ok as well. As I said before, in other clubs you can have great eyecontact, cuddling, conversation (sometimes very personal) just to be disappointed because ‘kissing is for love’. Like I said I see both sides of the discussion (and all your points have featurd, trust me), but am still not sure where I stand. Still wouldn’t call it abusive though.
I don’t know what the racial/nationality mix is there, but to workers/patrons tend to self segregate to different clubs? In other words, do some clubs have a higher patronage of Dutch or French or blacks/whites?
Or is it all just a fairly generic mix?
Probably not…but then again, I’ve never seen anybody try. Most places have big gardens, so as long as you bring some baggies. Puppies will break the ice with the girls as well I’d imagine…these might be helpful ideas:p.
Entry, never…service, maybe:D Most girls are there for the Euros, I’m pretty sure anybody will allways be able to get laid.
-The clientele is pretty diverse. The messageboard I mentioned above is pretty similar to SDMB (vbulletin), just a bit fancier, and we had a poll about the age of th icebears. It was an almost perfect normal distribution (honestly one of the most normally distributed datasets I’ve seen) with 36-45 as the biggest group and 26-35 (me) and 26-55 as the next biggest groups. I will say that I’m usually one of the younger (looking) ones.
-I’m sure STD’s happen. The girls get tested regulalrly and most icebears (at least the frequent visitors) get tested regularly as well. Sometimes people do catch something (never heard about anyone, girls or bear, catching HIV) and the prudent action is to let the club know (incl. the ladies’ names). It is very rare though. The biggest epidemic was a spread of pinkeye a couple of months ago.
-This question would take me 10 pages to answer properly. None of the girls are abused or mistreated while in the clubs. The problem with ‘trafficing’ is that the definition is too broad. If a college in the US would arrange for me to study there, and ask 50 dollars as a fee, they would be human trafficers per the (dutch) definition. We all know that these Romanian girls don’t find out about the clubs by themselves (there are no advertisements advertsising jobopportunities in the saunaclubs in Romania), but that doesn’t automatically mean they are taken advantage of (while I’m pretty sure it happens).
In my experience - and this corraborated by the many, many icebears who get a bit too close to the ladies (you wouldn’t believe how many guys fall in love) and actually visit their hometowns in Romania (or wherever) - these girls all know the job they are going to do and they probably pay people (too much) to set up visa and living arrangments, etc. Given the amount of vacations (going home) the girls take and the amount of newly arrived cousins, little sisters, etc. you get introduced to (it realy can get a bit uncomfortable when a 20 year old girl inroduces you to her little sister); I’m pretty sure most girls know what they are getting into and choose to do so (also logical if you see the gdp per capita in their home nations). Also, a girl that doesn’t want to work will not make any money. Unlike the windows or Laufhauser, girls need to ‘seduce’ the men to get them to go to the room. I’ll leave it at that.
Fascinating thread polar bear; I’m glad you started it. I have a couple of questions:
Have you ever heard of a customer getting barred/banned from the club? What offenses could cause this (I guess I’m asking what The Rules are)?
You mention that no one other than people on the forums or other Icebears know you frequent these clubs. Have you ever been in a club and bumped into someone you knew or recognized?
What the men is concerned, it is just geographical. The clubs near the Dutch and Belgian borders will have a lot of Dutch and Belgian customers (French as well). In the Hessen clubs there are a lot of Italians, because Ryan Air has cheap flights from Italy to Frankfurt.
What girls is concerned, most clubs have a majority of Romanian girls, but some pride themselves on having a more diverse line up.
Bannings happen. I think if you treat a girl badly you will definately get a house verbot. All the clubs have a few burly, bouncer like men alking around by the way. The last banning I heard of was because a customer gave one of the ladies a lift (who he had known for a bunch of years). Men dropping off girls for work, gets people at the club thinking about pimps/human trafficers, so next time he came to the club, he was told he had a ban. Just to be clear girls get rides from regulars all the time, this guy was really unlucky that the club tok this stance.
In general I would say if you follow these rules: don’t be a dick, treat the ladies and the staff with repect, don’t get too drunk. You will be fine. With some of these you might still get away…but why would you try. BTW I’ve never seen a bear been thrown out (I’ve twice seen a lady being asked to leave though).
I’ve never bumped into anyone. Once I thought I saw one of my best friends little sister and I almost had a heartattack, luckily it turned out to be someone else.
polar bear-
Do you ever have any emotional feeling after leaving? Aside from being relaxed (I assume), anything else you actually “feel” ? Does it impact your own feelings of yourself in some articulable way?
When not at the club, how often are you thinking about being there? Would you consider your time there a healthy balance in relation to other parts of your life?
Do you ever go for non-sexual purposes (company, people watching, etc…)?
Maybe you’ve covered this, but how many times have you been in your life/how many different women have you been with?
Ahh, good questions.
I think you said that women can go to these clubs, but can women also have sex with the prostitutes?