Do you frequent these places because you don’t currently have a relationship? Or don’t want a relationship? Or do you have a relationship with an understanding type of gal?
Assuming no relationship do you date regular women? If so, does it ever come up that you go to these places? If things got serious would you tell your lady? Invite her along? Quit going?
I guess I’m wondering what your motivation is - it just seems cheaper to get a girlfriend, although I suppose depending on the girl that might not be the case. Is this a ‘sewing your wild oats’ type thing or do you expect to continue for many years?
I’m pushing this thread off the rails a bit, but I am curious, is it really common for men to pay money to women to let them eat them out to completion. I could understand about it as foreplay but not an act in itself.
I’m going to sound like a caveman, but don’t most men only give their partner oral sex because they love them, it isn’t innately pleasurable to the man in itself. Why would a man pay money to give pleasure to a stranger?
I quite enjoy giving cunnilingus (one of my favorite things, actually), but I really wouldn’t be up for it with a prostitute who might not be so “fresh.” Maybe if I knew I was the first customer after a weekend off.
First, thanks for starting the thread.
Second, how do the women tend to be perceived? If you meet a prostitute at a party and ask what she does, might she tell the truth?
You mentioned giving a smouldering look, dick grabs and sample blowjobs (to what degree?) as ways to attract clients, what else do they do?
When did it become legal? Is it a significant political issue?
Very (very!!) good questions indeed! I was thinking as I was logging off yesterday, that most questions had been about the technical aspects and not so much about me as a guy who pays for sex.
Visiting the clubs does not really impact how I feel about myself, I’m not disgusted with myself or anything. Sometimes when I’m walking from my car to the front door of a club (after driving for 3/4 hours; especially if I had to use maps to find the place) I will get sort of a feeling like: ‘really, you’re traveling to another country to go to a sex club!’, but that always dissapears when I enter the club.
Thusfar I’ve had two club visits that left me thinking about a particular girl for days (if not weeks) afterwards, but I don’t think it ever got ‘dangerous’. The first time was my very first clubvisit; I had a great time chatting, laughing, having serious discussion about art (never thought I would be discussing the particulars of Dali’s Hitler’s enigma and Endless enigma in a brothel) with one of the prettiest girls I’ve ever seen. After quite a while - when I finally got to asking if she wanted to go to a room - she told me I was too young and that she only went with older guys because she wanted to keep some distance from the job (whether this was the real reason is up to debate). Even after this moment we spent some time together and when I left, I felt like a teenager who has just seen his big crush making out with someone else. It is very possible it was precisely because we didn’t ‘do’ anything that I kept thinking of her. The second time was again with a very beautiful good natured girl, but here I was just lingering in the memories of the experience; allthough it’s probably good that she works in a club 5 hours away, instead of two hours away. I’m going to visit that club again soon and I’m not really sure if I’m more exited about going to that club again, or about seeing her again.
As I said before, it is far more common than I ever expected for icebears to ‘fall in love’ or get too close to a girl (especially the guys who visit the same club multiple times a week). It also isn’t at all uncommon for actual relationships to develop, but most of these don’t have a happy end. Given how I like to spend time with the girls before and after sex (we would usually call that a GFE bear), it isn’t inconceivable that it would happen to me to. I find it a bit worrying that all the experienced bears I’ve met will end up saying (very matter of factly, without a hint of doubt) that it will happen to me at some point in time as well. For the time being I have far too little time (or money) to visit clubs often enough for a girl to really get under my skin. Thank god!
2 Another very good question. If I’m really honest the last few months I’ve really been living from club visit to club visit, the time in between is mostly going through the motions (work, weekly soccer matches, etc.) till I can go to a club again. I’m now in the middle of 2 month stint without a club visit (because of time constraints, nothing premeditated) and that’s probably a good thing. I am starting to notice that I’m not that willing to pay for stuff anymore, when I was discussing the annual ski-trip with friends, I couldn’t help thinking I could also use the money for a long weekend clubbing. All this will probably change a bit when the novelty wears of, every trip I still visit a new club, which is always exciting. Think of it as Disney World, which is great fun as long there are new rides to disover, but once you know everything and have decided upon your favorite rides…visiting once in a while is enough. I’m definately not thinking about turning it into a lifestyle (like some guys who visit clubs 4/5 days a week:eek:).
3 For me, no. But there are people who do and the companionship (with other icebears you know) really makes a clubvisit a lot more fun. I believe that people who want to quit visiting clubs generally find it more difficult to deal with missing these friendships (guys who have known each other for years) than the actual sex. I go for sex, allthough it does happen that I leave while only having sex once (but that’s usually because of the lineup).
4 I discovered the clubs about 6 months ago and quickly decided to stop going to windows to save for one monthly clubvisit. Thusfar I’ve been about 20 times, you can do the math… :eek:While I’m a relative novice what number of visits is concerned, I have visited 9 different clubs. There are bears that have been more than a hundred times, but always to the same club.
In the clubs I’ve been with about 40 different women (some multiple times, often on the same day) and maybe 20/30 before that in the Netherlands (windows).
I think that is the idea, but you’ll have to find a working girl that’s up for it. If you do a threesome a ‘lesbian show’ is always on of the possibilities (for an extra fee off course), but I’m not sure all girls will do this when the other girl is not also a prostitute. I’m also not to clear about what the pricing would be…as I said, it is pretty rare to see female cutomers.
More than a year ago I came out of a longterm relationship and the first few months I really wasn’t up for a new relationship. I did want sex though, and at some point I decided to go to one of the windows (as a Dutch liberal, I’ve been in favor of legalized prostitution far before I ever had sex). This was just a release and I ended up going every once in a while, but the experience is very different from the clubs. Through the internet I found out about the clubs and after visiting once, I haven’t looked back.
I don’t really ‘date’ other women, put then again nobody does here in the Netherlands. All my relationships (and those of everyone I know) started with a jump from being single to being a couple in a matter of weeks (days?). I think we had a thread on this some time ago, but you usually meet someone and if things go well you’re a couple pretty much imediately. If I would meet a girl - still don’t really want a relationship by the way - I would stop visiting the clubs imediately; I don’t cheat (whenever I say this to the girls in the club, they either tell me I’m full of shit or just laugh while shaking their head).
About the cheaper thing; I can go to a club with food, drink, welness and sex with 3 beautiful girls for 145 euros (one of the cheaper clubs I admit). If I go out with a girl and pay for dinner, drinks and club entrance, I’ll spend more easily. With sex being all but certain. If you want to be in a relationship, things are different off course…but if sex is your objective, a clubvisit isn’t that much more expensive. And the women are often incredible.
I honestly don’t know if I am just ‘sewing my wild oats’, I guess it is possible. If I look 3 or 5 years ahead, I definately picture myself in a relationship/living together/etc. But I’m also realizing that when I go out with friends, I almost can’t be bothered to hit on a girl anymore. Last time I found myself thinking that if it had been a club, there wouldn’t be anyone I’d take to a room… Even when there are cute girls, the chance of succes aren’t that great and even when you are succesful, both will have had too much to drink for the sex to be anything but mediocre. At this point in time I go out with friends to have a good time, and go to the German clubs for girls/sex.
FKK stands for Frei Koerper Kultur, which just means nudism. Nudist beaches in Europe will often be called ‘FKK beaches’. The German for brothel is Bordell. These clubs call themselves FKK clubs, because all the girls walk around in their birthdaysuits.
I wouldn’t be surprised if more than half of the bears were married, but I don’t really know. It is really a non-issue for the girls and other icebears.
The girls do pay taxes, but probably on a small part of their income. There is no way to keep track of what they make. In many clubs you just go to a room when you want to and no record is kept. In other clubs they do log when you go to a room (mostly for cases where clients and girls have a dispute about the time spent in the room), but even then it tells you very little. For instance, in Hessen half an hour in a room can mean 50 euros or 200 euros (anal and cum in mouth)…and probably even more.
I don’t of girls having other jobs. Some are students though and only work in weekends (or just a handful times a month). The girl usually spend 8-12 hour shifts (with often little to do) for 4-6 days a week, so other jobs aren’t really possible.
Like in any business, these girls have to market their services. It really is very funny to see how quickly new girls figure out basic marketing and consumer behaviour. If you stay with a girl for 3 hours, it is quite common that she charges you only 2/2.5. If you are a regular she will also spend a lot of time with you outside of the room (have dinner together, join you in the hot tub, just hang out when things are slow). I doubt they will throw in a total freebie (in the club at least, bears and girls can also meet up outside the club).
The clubs to hand out discount coupons for your next visit and in some clubs you can buy a card that gives you entrance 5 or 10 times (with some discount of course). The forum I metioned also has a raffle a few times a month, where you can with free entrance to some of the clubs (they are sponsored by these clubs).
I forgot to add that sex doesn’t necessarily need to take place in a room. If there are waiting times (happens regularly) you can have sex on numerous places in the club or garden. Especially the kino is suitable for this (have I mentioned the kino yet?). Almost all clubs have a ‘movie theatre’ with two seater couches and/or ‘beds’ that is showing porn. You can take your girl here to get to know her a bit better and if you want complete the whole session. There are also girls that ‘prey’ on guys that come in to have a look, even in clubs that don’t allow the girls to make contact, there is usually an exception for the kino.
It is really foreplay and making a girl cum (for real) is rare. From a bear who lived with a protitute: in her 5 years on the job, she came exactly twice. Some guys do try, so a good girl will fake it and a good bear will pretend to believe her. I’m pretty sure I never made a girl come in a club, even though some girl are good actresses.
Girls also don’t want to cum (unless she is one of the very, very rare nymphos), because it is both too personal and bad for business. I think most women here will agree that an orgasm (let alone multiple) is exhausting and leaves your lady parts super sensitive. In all honestly, bears that want to make a girl come no matter what are considered dicks, because it essantially makes it impossible for her to work for an hour or so (and she’ll be tired).
Off course sometimes the girls let themselves go (with regulars) or new girls will not know how how and when to stop. Usually a girl will put a brake on it when your are getting close, just by a small push on your head or by pulling you back up for a kiss. Most of us know that a short break like this will mean you have to start all over again, which usually doesn’t happen.
Caveman? I don’t know. I - and many other bears - love giving head. We all love women and there is little that is more fun than exploring a beautiful girl’s body. I’m also a big fan of the view from between a girls legs (looking her in the eyes between her breasts). I also think I’ve had some of the most intimate moments while eating a girl out. One girl (for instance) grabbed my hands and by squeezing and letting up she was letting me know what was working and what not…for some reason this is one of the most intimate moments in a club for me.
It is probably also part of the Girl Friend Experience to eat her out, there are definitely bears that really just want sex and don’t ever eat a girl out (or cuddle/kiss for that matter).
Most of the girls are pretty hygienic; the only nastiness I ever encoutered was a soapy taste because she had just cleaned herself (I was her first of the day) and she apologized about the soap beforehand, I did not let it bother me though:)
No problem, I’m really enjoying this thread too! Interesting way to spend a sunday morning, keep the questions coming!
The way the girls approach you differs from club to club (really no two are the same). A few clubs have very strict policies, which means the girls should just sit and wait. This is where smouldering looks come in (allthough many girls don’t even dare to do look). When a girl notices you are looking in her direction/checking her out, she just looks you straight in the eyes with a ‘come here, now’ look in her eyes. If you’re not immediately interested you look away, but when you look back a few minutes later she is still giving you the same hot look…one time I actually couldn’t stand it anymore (just means she was doing it well) and had to leave the bar area.
In other clubs these rules are not as stringent or non-existent. But even then the level of hunting depends on the ‘club culture’. In general in most NWR clubs a few girls will come by and start a conversation, but most just wait till you either come up to them or look for eye contact. They will often dance to the music (in the evenings) to flaunt their stuff. I’ve also had girls join me in the hottub, which eventually leads to a conversation, some cuddling and a question about going to a room.
In Hessen the girls are a lot pushier (which I happen to like), they really hunt for clients. When you are walking around (usually in just a towel) the girls will try to grab your hand or push themselves (nude remember) up against you while they start a conversation. If you are standing at the bar/sitting in a couch/lying by the pool they will come join you (for instance by taking a seat on your lap, or if your standing they’ll be hanging around your neck) and try to get you to come with them. In these cases girls might also reach under your towel, but for me that’s almost an immediate disqualification. There really is a lot of skin to skin contact in these places (might be why I like it so much :dubious:).
When you are interested in going with a girl you either take her to the kino or stay wherever you are and you kiss for a bit (there are really only 5 clubs I know - 3 in NRW and 2 in Hessen where this is more a rule than an exception), after which she’ll give you a short blowjob (this is common in only 3 clubs - 2 in NRW and 1 in Hessen). ‘Sample blowjob’ is a bit misleading though, because once you get this far you are expected to go through with the session (the same applies, to a bit lesser extent, when your are realling french kissing for a few minutes).
There are also clubs where it is really uncommon for anything (except cuddling) to happen before you get to the room, but even there it happens occasionally.
In Germany it was legalized in 2002 (in NL in 2000), according to wikipedia the good working conditions in these FKK clubs were part of the reason for legalizing. I gues the other reasons are control, decrminaliztion, etc.
Prices are not really twice as high (only for extas, including extra time), but the reason is the lack of competition. Or more acurately, the huge increase in clubs in NRW, so the increase in competition. Because of the cheaper extras I’m much more likely to make use of them though (just hang out for an extra half an hour), so I usually spend the same wherever I go. My favorite club is in Hessen by the way.
Does any of this officially take place outside the club building itself? For example I know that with the GFE (Girlfriend Experience) in some of the clubs in Nevada, USA they’ll spend the day with you out on the town as a part of the package. Does everything officially have to remain on club grounds?
Totally forgot this question. Just like visiting a prostitute, prostituting yourself is not done. I think many girls will not be upfront about this, but some might. I’ve known a girl (when in college) that did some (expensive) escort work and didn’t have any qualms talking about it…but I think those girls are the exception.
Everything happens on the club grounds, which can be huge, including large gardens. I’m not sure what would happen if you leave together with a girl, but I doubt the management wil approve. Once you know a girl - it is very easy to get a phonenumber if you want to - you can (if she really knows you well) meat up outside the club…but the club has no stakes in this. For most icebears, this is a boundary you shouldn’t break, since it is the first step (well 4th or 5th) in getting too close to a girl. I don’t know of any bear that wants to fall in love with a prostitute, yet it happens a lot… we men are really a bunch of schmucks. Making sure not to meet up outside the club is a good way of reducing the chances of this happening. I personally don’t even accept phonenumbers.
I have a bunch, but before I started this thread I read the forum rules and apparantly we are not allowed to be too much ‘like penthouse’ when discussing sex. I might already have broken this rule, but starting with anecdotes will definately venture into that ground; specific sexual acts will need to be mentioned.
I have no problem with sharing, but first I’d like a mod to tell me it is ok (maybe by spoilering it?). It would be a shame if this gets the thread closed.
Yeah, I don’t really know how to go about a mods approval though…
I am partially serious.
