I don’t want to derail the discussion into GD territory, but there’s a quite a huge excluded middle there. In the US we only hear about the high end and low end of prostitution: Nevada brothels and $5000/night escorts like those Charlie Sheen bangs for the former, and those like you describe for the latter.
The reality is that the majority of prostitutes in the US are middle class: they advertise on the internet and charge $100-200/hour for ordinary services with a handful of clients a day. They may do incall, where customers come to an apartment rented for work only, often in conjunction with some other prostitutes, or outcall, where they go to the customer’s home or hotel, generally arranged through an agency.
It’s very easy to not notice its existence, but if you know where to look you’d be very surprised at the extent of the prostitution industry in most large US cities. That’s what led to the backlash against craigslist and their eventual removal of their adult section: it suddenly became very obvious just how many prostitutes were out there. When it’s hidden away, people can pretend it doesn’t exist, and the desperate, drug-addicted street prostitutes are still there when politicians and cops need to look like they’re tough on crime or the 11 o’clock news needs a good sweeps week story.
What an interesting thread. I had no idea that such places existed. I took a boo at the Artemis website, and based on the photos (possibly nsfw http://www.fkk-artemis.de/en/gallery.php) and the descriptions, it looks to me that if sex was not part of the equation, it would be a very enjoyable day spa. Add sex to it, and I can see why it is so popular when compared to other venues for prostitution.
As it stands, prostitution is legal in Canada, but running a brothel, advertising, and living on a prostitute’s earnings are not legal. In Ontario, the Superior Court struck down these laws, and the Crown appealed the decision to the Ontario Court of Appeal, which put a stay in place and which has reserved its decision (meaning that they have put the lower court’s decision on hold for the time being, and have heard the case, and are in the process of writing their decision). If the trial decision is upheld, the doors would be open for entrepeneurs to set up establishments such as Germany’s FKK clubs. The closest I have come across was a client who wanted to turn a bar and motel into a bar/brothel. It seems to me now that she was thinking too small. I wonder if Canadians’ perceptions of brothels as being seedy places along the lines of Nevada, as opposed to day spas on the German FKK model, will lead to either slow growth of the industry due to lack of vision, or to opportunities being captured by German developers and investors.
I’m a fishmonger, but I think the name is a big turnoff for the young people wanting to enter the trade. Can you suggest an alternative moniker that we can go by, something cool and snappy that might be more appealing for everyone?
(N.B. We also deal with ice quite a lot, so “ice” could be part of it. And “fish” too.)
My question is this. What thoughts do you have about the other bears you encounter? Do you find yourself sizing them up (so to speak)? Do you think they are losers or are really cool for being there? And a complicated one: would you prefer it if the other guys there were really good looking or really unappealing? I have my own thoughts on this.
Interesting question. I guess I won’t really know until I try. Talking to the girls is definitely an art though, similar but different to talking to girls in bars. Of course you’re a shoe in what the sex is concerned, but the challenge is usually to get to the stage where you’re both laughing/joking/having fun. Especially with the less outgoing girls that I happen to like, the effect of getting them in a ‘good mood’ can be pretty big. It usually helps to be a bit selfdepricating, or over the top with how pretty they are and how you’re ‘totally in love’. Just making a bit of an ass out of your self:).
You can usually see by the way a ‘couple’ walks to a room, whether the bear tried to set the mood. If the girl is walking two steps in front of him, its was probably pretty business like. If they are holding hands, arm in arm, chatting, or he’s walking just behind her with his hands on her hips, they probably had some fun together already. With some girls you don’t have to try at all, and they’ll make sure you’re having fun together, but with others it may take some effort to get them to open up. I don’t want to give the impression that I’m any good at this, but I’ve definitely gotten a lot better at it over the last months. I’m still no where near some of the experienced bears I’ve had the pleasure of hanging out with, but it has been quite a while since I’ve followed a girl from a few steps back. Just to be clear, this doesn’t have to mean anything for the sex. I’ve had some great sessions with girls that I hardly talked to beforehand (in my first few visits, this wasn’t unsual at all), but the fun element is often started before you head to the room. I doubt this ‘progress’ will translate to normal conversations with women, but you never know… I’m definitely a lot more comfortable with physical contact though, so if I were to go to dance clubs where the dancing gets physical (allthough I think those days are over at my age) it might make a difference.
I don’t expect to be ‘ruined’ for ‘normal women’. In real life personality seems to have played a lot bigger role for me, than just looks. Besides, even in clubs the pretty girl you fall for one day, might not even register on you rader the next, just because of the very pretty girls that are present that day. In other words, your (sometimes ridiculously high) standards depend on the girls that are available, in my case at least. It is only as long as I’m comparing women in a dance club to the women in a saunaclub (ie when I haven’t decided to settle down yet), that the clubgirls influence my thoughts and actions about normal girls.
Another good question here. My first reaction is: hell no! As I said before, visiting a prostitute isn’t really accepted as normal/good behavior. But I also can’t really imagine a serious relationship without honesty. Remember, I first visited a prostitute after getting out of my previous relationship. I can’t imagine volunteering the information, but when it comes up I might admit to having visited a prostitute (but not how often and in what setting) or say something about having been with a number of women that meant little to me… I guess we’ll see. When the question of number of sexual partners comes up I will be divididing by three instead of multiplying by three though:D* In case it isn’t obvious - and to preempt this follow up question - I will make sure to be cleared for any STD’s before being in a relationship again.
About the gay brothels, I’m sure there are some (maybe not in this format), but couldn’t find anything about it on the forum(s) I frequent. It seems these two scenes are totally split from each other. When you search for fkk clubs on google maps, you get a lot of hits, but I have never seen a club that was a gay brothel (you do find some legit nudist clubs though)…just like you don’t see any guys behind windows (except once as a publicity stunt). I can’t imagine gay prostitution being illegal; come to think of it, I don’t the Dutch public would accept this kind of discrimination (I wouldn’t).
*For those of you who don’t know, there is a meme that men multiply their real number of sexual partners by three when asked about it, while women divide by three.
As you rightfully say, it differs form club to club. But in most cases it is pretty basic. You have a double bed and often some chairs, nightstands or sometimes even a couch. But these are really only used to put you bathrobe on. Pillows are also pretty common, but not everywhere. I know one club where all rooms have a bathroom, and have seen this in the ocasional room in other clubs as well. I read about one club that has/had a few rooms with a jacuzzi, but you had to pay extra to use it…which nobody did. I haven’t seen any swings or theme rooms, but you might have rooms that have different colorschemes or a zebraprint or something. In Oase pretty much all rooms are have tiles on the floors and the walls, with the bed built in (can be really uncomfortble when giving head), the colours differ per room (I think there are some pictures on the site). So in some rooms everything is blue, in others it is red and one small room even is all mirrors. Mirrors are pretty common in all clubs by the way, either on the walls, the ceiling or both. In many succesfull clubs there are roomshortages (leads to waiting times) and permits for expansions are difficult to get, so they have a dozen or more gardencabins in the garden or a bunch of tents (Oase). I was in a cabin once, but didn’t really like it beacuse it was just wooden walls with a bed. In Oase they also have a large matress in a gazebo ouside on a spot overlooking the garden; the highest point of the club, but when it’s busy in Oase any couch can be used really.
The way you go to a room differs from club to club. In some clubs you have two sided signs (green with ‘frei’ and red with ‘besetzt’) which get flipped when entering and leaving the room. Some have sort of ‘toilet’ system, where you have a switch that locks the door (with a red sign visible outside)…if the girl remembers to lock the door properly. Some have numbered keys that hang in a fixed place that can then be taken by a girl, indicating the room is taken. And in quite a few places, the girls have to go get a key at the frontdesk (here it is common for a girl to ask whether you want her to get a key, instead of whether you want to go to a room/ have sex with her).
Hygiene also differs from place to place. There are clubs where the girl hands the key to a staff member (for cleaning) while you walk back to your locker, but those really are the best run clubs. Then there are clubs where the girls pick up a clean sheets when you are walking with her to the room, which afterwards gets thrown in a hamper. But many clubs just expect you to put down a couple of towels on the bed, like Oase (hence the lack of hygiene I mentioned earlier). Trashcans won’t be emptied till the end of the day - btw, you’ll find rolls of paper throughout the club in rooms, near couches, in the kino for…eh spontanuous action -,usually girls make sure to leave the room somewhat cleanly, but I’ve had it happen that we entered a room with condomwrappers and crumpled papers lying on the bed. My girl said something about the standards of some girls and cleaned it up for us.
I don’t really have a favorite room, or room that was special in any way. There are some rooms I try to avoid, mostly because they are small and hot (being near the welness area). Usually the girls know which rooms are good (for instance with airconditioning), so it’s best to let them decide. In busy places (like Oase) you often just enter the first free room you can find.
In some clubs the rooms have open ceilings, so you can hear what’s happening in the other rooms. One time I was waiting, with the girl sitting on my lap, for a room to free up (and another couple next to us) when a girl in one of the rooms came (fake?) very loudly. The girls immediately started gossiping on who it might have been, while I and the other guy looked at each other and shortly shrugged. When a room became free, my girl immediately asked her (good) friend that came out of the room whether that was her, to which she got a very pissy: Bist du Blod!(Are you crazy):D. Before we went inside she made sure to ask the other girls to find ot who it was. When I asked her whyshe cared, she just said - with a twinkle in her eyes - it was a thing between the girls.
I don’t think politicians have any specific views on these clubs, but only on prostitution in general. I believe, but I really don’t follow German politics that much, there was some upheaval about the flatrate clubs where you pay one fee and have sex as much as you want.
In the Netherlands legalized prostitution (trafficers and loverboys are a different thing) seems to be a non-issue. Like most of the progressive actions of the late nineties (gay marriage, euthanasia, etc.) and also tolerating soft drugs, the christian parties don’t really approve…but it isn’t a salient issue. It is like the Socialist Party being against the monarchy. It is part of their principles, but given public opinion not something that gets mentioned a lot.
It is mostly municipal governments that are trying to limit/regulate/control prostitution. So in The Hague, they closed down a window street and interviewed all girls (took all evening and night) to find out about humman trafficers and girls that were there against their will. Nothing has come out of it sofar.
I imagine it is similar in Germany (hence the difficulty of getting building permission), I’ve also heard (don’t know if it is true) that this is the reason they called it saunaclubs. It is easier to get a private saunaclub approved, then to get a brothel approved. People don’t tend to like the idea of a sexclub in their small village.
There isn’t any enthusiasm on the staff for allowing explicit tales of adventures in a brothel, so I’m going to have to disallow any detailed descriptions of your sexual exploits. You may allude to your sexual encounters, certainly, but please no lurid descriptions of sex acts. We’re not here to provide, um, material.
I’m confused as to the payment scheme in this situation. Here is my understanding:
You pay a flat rate of 25-80 euros to get into the club where you get access to the wellness clinic, free food and beverages, and where you can meet the prostitutes.
If you want sex with a prostitute, that is a fee based on the amount of time or the act itself (25 euros, 50 euros, etc). Maybe 50 euros for half an hour, or 25 for a specific sex act.
So is that how it works? If you go into the club for maybe 50 euros and have sex with 2 women at 50 euros each per half hour each the total cost may be 150 euros? How long can you stay in the club after you pay the 25-80 euro fee (the link by Muffin earlier implies all day)? Do people ever go to the clubs and pay the entrance fee just for the buffet, saunas, pool, and to look at the attractive woman just as a form of stress relief w/o actually meeting any women for sex? Do they go out of their way to promote a low stress atmosphere, and do people go there just for that w/o engaging in sex?
Since the women are looking to have sex since that is how they make money, how do the men imply they aren’t interested if he is just there to enjoy the scenery and relaxation but not pay for sex?
He’s confirmed that they do though I believe the other bears look down on that. You seem to have the system right as he’s described it. Basically the women pay to get in just like normal customers but they can also charge men (other customers) for sex. The women keep all of their earnings because their being there at all is what attracts guys who then have to pay the entrance fee so it gets to be pretty lucrative for everyone involved (except for the customers of course, but they’re getting relatively cheap sex as well as a day in a comfortable setting with free beer).
Um, just wondering- what would your opinion be if you found a girl you knew ‘outside’- a friend or relative, working or planning to work in one of these clubs? Would you try and talk her out of it?
Is there a rental price for the rooms? If not, is it just first-come, first-served?
Do they change the sheets between visitors? Seriously!
Are the food and beer/liquor prices extraordinarily high?
If the women just walk in and pay like anyone else, can a newcomer just walk in and start doing business? If so, how are the STD screenings done?
Is there an informal or formal age limit on the prostitutes?
How is supply and demand handled? On a busy night, will the club quit admitting men? How does the club incentivize business on, say, a Monday morning? Is liquor half price? Does the club reduce the entrance fee?
To the OPer: I know women who developed in their mind an idea of how the perfect marriage should work. Usually it’s the wife stays at home to raise the kids, while the man works at a high-paying job so that they could afford their 4 bdrm house, SUVs, and 2nd home in Florida. And when reality sets in (e.g. he loses his job and/or she has to work), they become bitter and discontented. They can’t let go of the fantasy in their head of how it’s SUPPOSED to be long enough to realize that what they actually have is pretty good.
So I’m wondering if you ever worry that by continuing to feed this fantasy life, you’re setting yourself up to be discontented in your “real” life. In other words, if a woman of your equal looks and intelligence were available to date, would you dismiss her because she couldn’t possibly measure up to the 22 year old Romanian woman at the brothel who is eager to give you a blow job and can’t afford to be in a bad mood?
You keep saying how young you are. So how old are you? I assume these clubs are 18 and over.
You also keep saying that you couldn’t attract a beautiful woman. How would you rate yourself on looks? Because I know perfectly ordinary men who have beautiful wives.
Thanks, and I want to second that I’m pleasantly surprised that there have been few, if any, judgemental questions. As I said earlier, I’m enjoying this thread as wel. Maybe because it gives me the chance to talk about this new ‘hobby’ I’ve found, can’t really do that with my firends. It does take some time to answer the questions and it seems I’m slowly started to lag a bit behind. This is probably only going to get worse the next few days, as we’re having a nice Indian summer going on. Keep the questions comming though, there’s nothing as changeable as Dutch weather:).
Well, you’re making me blush (of all the things mentioned in this thread:)). I’m not sure all women would agree with you though, time will tell.
I agree with what you say about the Romanian girls, I wouldn’t want family members to do this work either. But I’m convinced the girls (in general) will not be better off, if I don’t go to the club (or if the clubs were illegal for that matter). Then most would probably just be stuck in poverty.
There is definitely music at all times. In some cases very appropriate, in some cases very annoying (loud). Many clubs have a dj on weekends and the music in the evening will usually be upbeat and danceable, so you often see some girls poledancing a bit (most clubs have pole in the bar area). There’s also quite a bit of Romanian dance music being played (or English languag music by Romanian artists), probably because it is often the Romanian that bring the atmosphere by dancing on the bar or whereever. This is a lot less in places that are mostly open during the day (clubs often close either around 1 at night or 4/5 at night) and also in the clubs where the girls are supposed to just sit and wait.
I usually don’t really notice the music that much, unless it is a nuisance, but there is one club that always seems to play very appropriate music. I’ll mention this club (FKK World,[noparse]www.fkk-world.de[/noparse]) because it is also the biggest club, with multiple numbered parkinglots and with special events they even have shuttle services from the parkinglots to the club. It really is huge, with both an indoor and an outdoor pool and a garden as large as a couple of footballfields; too bad I usually find the girls can’t match up to those in Oase.
In my observation, it’s pretty much just about having sex without all the hassle and drama of having to pick up some girl in a bar and then deal with getting rid of her afterwards. I have a number of friends who are into this sort of thing and it’s not like they can’t get laid without paying for it. In fact, whenever I hear a guy talking about taking a vacation to Thailand, Brazil, Czech Republic, Poland, Russia or obviously Amsterdam, I’m pretty sure they are off to find prostitutes.
To the OP: Do you ever get to a point where you just find it exasperating? Or maybe a better way of putting it is do you feel you would be better off spending your time and money doing other stuff? I’m not asking in a judgemental way. I used to spend a lot of time with my buddies in strip clubs and ..ah…other places. For me, it just got to a point (or I got to an age) where it felt more lame and creepy than fun and awesome.
