A lot of that about even among the straight cis community, I find.
Firstly - you’re nifty. I’ve been trying to remember if we’d met at some point but upon brain cudgelling I believe it was your goodladywife I met back in the mists of time. Who is also nifty.
Two questions, to answer or not:
I know you’ve already touched on this but I have a personal interest in voices (all that singing training). How “deep” are we talking about here? You said you’re working with an opera singer - do you sing, and what’s your range like? Sorry if this is a sore point.
I’ve seen people be dicks about this (deliberately using birth-gender pronouns to be nasty) and I’ve seen people do so innocently only to get their heads bitten off by rather sensitive trans people so I’m curious: what’s your tolerance level for this and how often do you (or other trans people generically, if you’d prefer to answer that way) offer firm but polite corrections vs ripping someone a new one for pronoun misuse?
Heh - now I’m hearing Daffy Duck say “Aha! Pronoun trouble!”
This can be a problem, although mercifully the problem appears to slowly being resolved. One thing to look for is a psychologist who states that they follow WPATH 7 guidelines for the diagnosis and treatment of patients with gender dysphoria. But a very important thing to go by is direct responses from trans patients who have visited the therapist. We are sometimes very good at determining if a therapist “clicks” with us or not.
It’s complicated by the fact that sometimes a cigar is a cigar. Our local group of therapists are incredibly pro-trans and actual advocates for trans rights and respect, and as a “graduate” of their group I actually hold a position as an “associate” of the group. And we do find regularly patients who the therapists judge are either not gender dysphoric “enough”, are confused homosexual/lesbian patients, or are crossdressers who are in the “pink fog.”
And you are correct, a PCP should not be independently administering hormones to a self or internet-diagnosed transperson - there should be a letter from a qualified therapist prior to that happening, then screening for liver function, you know the rest.
Oh goodness, I really don’t know. I tend to use “LGBT” or “LGBTI”, but others will use any number of initials. You can sum it up by saying “sexual preference and gender identity-variant community”, but I don’t think that’s any better (and people with a chip on their shoulder will jump on you: “what do you mean ‘variant’?”)
I don’t disagree with that at all, but take a poll sometime: regardless of anything else, how many women would be comfortable dating or having sex with a pre-op transwoman or transman? The numbers tend to be in the 0-10% range. It’s also notable in my community Fierra and I are part of only 4 couples who are married or in a long-term relationship out of maybe 80-100 fully-transitioned transpeople.
Our voices are our Achilles heel, because they are so difficult to change. I know of several transwomen who not only have fully transitioned but are beautiful - as in “hot cisgender woman beautiful” - but are hampered by a voice which betrays them at once. Our voices can drive us to despair and make us cry.
My “girl voice” has been compared by several independent judges to be very similar to that of Bea Arthur on The Golden Girls, and sometimes people say I have a “smoker’s voice,” like “Lauren Bacall if she smoked 4 packs a day.” If I get brave enough, I’ll post an MP3 of my voice later this weekend.
Of course if you have experience in this area, you know it’s not just tone, it’s inflection, emphasis, pronunciation, speed, etc. - all of these things have to be worked on to give a semblance of a girl voice. And sure, all people are different - I’ve met some cisgender women who have deeper voices than my “boy voice,”
Let me explain why innocent or accidental misgenderings are actually worse than purposeful ones, and this is something oft discussed in the community with pretty general agreement. When one of our supporters or allies misgenders us, the thought process is this: “Holy shit. This is my best friend X, who loves me to death and supports me in every way. And if he accidentally misgenders me, it means I’m really looking like a dude in a skirt/giving off a guy vibe/not passing/etc. I’m so ugly. I suck.” Whereas if someone says it to be mean, it’s more like “OK, that hurts, but they’re a hater.”
Some of us react badly to accidental misgenderings from friends because it makes us question and doubt our gender presentation to world. It also scares us - “OMG, he called me ‘he’ twice! Everyone knows what I am! They’re watching me and laughing at me!” You know, the paranoid stuff takes over. You start to imagine being gossiped about, never being invited to another get-together, being jumped on the way to you car…and yes it hurts terribly when we do it to each other. It really is like the “n-word”, except you NEVER say it even as a joke within the community.
Since I’ve confessed so much, I’ll tell about the last time it happened where I was really upset. We formed a transwomen’s double’s tennis club this last year (which had 2 cisgender women on it too) and one day four of us t-girls were out playing doubles. All of us are dear friends, long-term, and one day my partner, for reasons which are a mystery, misgendered me thrice on the court in one game. I finally had to throw down my racquet and walk away. The tennis coach (also trans) came running over to me, and she found I was crying as I was starting to put my gear together. I didn’t want to say what happened, but she coaxed it out of me, and then she hugged me and said “oh my poor friend! I understand, let’s take a walk and talk it out.” It took about 10 minutes before I could even face my partner again. She had no idea she was doing it, and was so horrified when I told her she burst into tears.
So if I pass so well, like I posted before, why did I get misgendered? My voice - it’s difficult to keep your girl voice when you’re diving for a return or moaning over a foul.
To answer your question more directly - since I’m an activist and “community leader”, I try to set an example. I try to correct very politely but firmly. My wife is less politically correct, and I’ve seen Fierra rip into someone who continued to misgender repeatedly.
I guess I have to say I suspect the reason was my voice on the court - it’s still a mystery, though.
Dont’ feel obligated to post the MP3 if you’re uncomfortable doing so - you’ve more than adequately answered my question. And from your description it sounds like the adjective you’re grasping for is “sultry”. Think of it in those terms - “sultry” is sexy as hell.
Another full and frank response, for which I thank you. I shall bear that all in mind.
My Opa (grandfather) died 10 years ago, and the last thing he said to me was how proud he was to be dying surrounded by his family, how everything was built on love and that was the most important thing. He had done what he had wanted to do. He had a large family and everyone was ok, everyone was there at his bedside when he died. He had provided for them what they needed, and they were all capable now. He had also wanted to be a part of rebuilding the Netherlands after the war, not as a politician, but in his own way, helping the country become economically viable. And he had been successful doing that.
My other grandfather, Grandpa, died in his eighties last year. He was so proud when he read my dissertation, not long before he died. He had built up his company to success. He was proud of his family, and he too could see they would be ok. He had fished the rivers he wanted to fish, seen of the world what he wanted to see and had climbed the mountains he wanted to climb (literally, he was friends with Hillary, but didn’t want to climb Everest!) He had said to me that he felt he was done with life.
They are two people who seem to me to have died satisfied and they lived their expected lifespans. I don’t think they felt it was too short. It’s an anecdote in GD, sorry about that, but I’m not sure how else this question can be answered. To many people it might be too short, but too short for what? It wasn’t too short for my grandfathers to accomplish what they wanted to accomplish.
I suppose though, that had they been immortal and known it, their goals would also have changed. Then it would have been pretty disappointing to die having only accomplished so little.
Um…OK, that’s very touching. I don’t think either of my grandparents were really happy, and my third one (blood relative to my mother, estranged from her) no one really knows. They had their “glory days” in the big war, and after that they seemed to settle very quickly into a life of quiet mediocrity which never sat well with them. To hear them speak, their times in WW2, even in a POW camp, were the highlights of their lives, and everything went downhill as soon as they returned home in 1945 to small-town Kansas.
However, all that aside unless one or both of your grandfathers was a transman, I’m suspecting you may have posted in the wrong thread.
There’s currently a thread in Great Debates titled “Is Life ‘Too Short’?” gracer probably had both threads open and accidentally posted to the wrong one.
I wish I had a good question or observation to add to this thread other than that, but I don’t. I’ll just repeat what others have said - thank you for starting this thread. It has been interesting and educational.
I have a transgendered friend who dropped off the face of the earth for two years while transitioning. When she finally introduced herself to the world and we set up a meeting at lunch I was absolutely terrified I was accidentally going to refer to her as he or by her old name. After all, I knew her as a male for over twenty years. Thankfully I’ve never slipped up in the department. When I asked about her changed voice she mentioned that it took a few years of working with a vocal coach to make it more feminine.
But she said that she wasn’t typical because unlike most other transexuals she was quite wealthy and money for treatment just wasn’t a concern. However, she did mention that she know a lot of transgendered women who essentially prostituted themselves because they would be unable to afford treatment and surgeries otherwise. Is this something you’ve observed at all in your area? She’s in Texas.
Also, how pervasive is the fear of violence among transgendered men and women? I know you’ve mentioned your personal experience but is there a general fear of violence among other transexual people?
Oh, this makes me so sad.
Outright prostitution still occurs, and from what I gather there are about 50 or more transwomen living on the streets doing just that in my community. However, this is out of an estimated 600-1,200 transgender persons in the area. Myself and two of my best friends, and 3-5 others could be called “upper middle class” or higher. About maybe 1/5 or less the community I would call “middle class,” and the rest are “working poor” or unemployed. Some of them were doing very well pre-transition – the molecular biologist who now works at a convenience store, the Army Captain who now works at Pizza Hut, etc. I only personally know a few current transwoman prostitutes, and many more who have done it in the past.
However, unlike what the papers and others report, the vast majority of transgender prostitutes I’ve known or known of in real life are not doing it to save money for surgery. They are doing it because they got stuck in that life out of desperation because no one would hire them, are now likely on drugs and just have no escape. A friend of mine and I are actually brainstorming on how we might spend some money and buy a “halfway house” as a shelter for some of these women on the street. We would need to raise some serious funs, but there is a lot of interest and maybe we can do it.
The fear of violence varies from sub-region to sub-region, and is a factor of many things. One of the biggest ones is how well you pass – if you pass, then your risk of violence for being trans is obviously lower. Violence in this area is uncommon, but noted. Most negative events are just being mocked or taunted, harassment, sometimes having something thrown at us like we’re a stray mangy dog. Some transwomen engage in risky behavior, like, oh, going down to bars and trying to pick up straight guys without telling them about yourself. One acquaintance was beaten bloody because she let a guy buy her a couple drinks and chatted with him. One of his friends came up and said basically “dude, don’t you know that’s a man?” and then the fists came out.
Another aspect of violence deals with the fact that since we haven’t lived socially as women, we lack a LOT of the basic “Spidey senses”, survival skills, and situational awareness that women develop which keep them out of trouble. Examples would be a transwoman who goes confidently trotting down a dark street after midnight, happy as a clam and not thinking that she’s 1) wearing heels which hobble her, 2) her strength is less than 50% it was as a man, and 3) she’s a single woman walking alone on a dark street.
I got in trouble once at a club, where I did something unwise – I had been dancing for hours, and went outside to cool off. By myself, in a dark street, dressed like a total slut (seriously), and looking small and cute. I was pacing to cool off, turned around, and suddenly two large (well, average sized, but to me they’re large) men were there. “Hey, you look like a party girl! Wanna party with us!?” I said “no, sorry” and turned away, and the lead one grabbed my wrist – hard – and said “Come on over to our car where it’s private, let’s party.” I could smell the booze on him, and possibly pot. And even though I probably could have used my limited martial arts skill to break away, maybe even hurt him…I froze. I was on heels and couldn’t run, no one was with me, I had no weapon, and no one would hear me scream. And I froze and was terrified. All self-defense skills left me, and here I was now a weak and helpless thing about to be taken somewhere against my will. He started dragging me to the car, and I fought, digging my heels in and not moving, but also not able to break free. Then his companion looked at me, and there was an “aha” moment, and he said words to the effect of “OMG you’re so stupid, that used to be a MAN!” The guy holding me dropped my arm like it was a live rattlesnake, laughed, hawked and spit on/at me, used a slur or two, and walked off in the night with his friend.
One of the things I teach mothers and parents of transkids is how to teach their children that new situational awareness that they must develop. Transgirls need to know they’re not able to enjoy the male privilege of very rarely being a target of rape, and having a small natural immunity from victimization.
Me too.
Speaking of voice, there is a fairly prominent counter-tenor who lives in Montreal. He sings contralto roles and is good. I’ve heard him interviewed on radio (his voice is definitely male, in fact, his male range is not even tenor, it is baritone) and he says that he is often asked is his gay and his invariable answer is “Ask my girlfriend”.
More seriously, one thing that has come across loud and clear in this whole thread is the importance of love. L-O-V-E, it’s easy to spell but hard to do. Maybe I am wrong, but I have the distinct impression that without it you wouldn’t have made it. The most outstanding piece of luck in my life has been my wife of just short of 50 years.
Yep, that’s the one BlackKnight. :smack: Very, very sorry! Big oops! Please just ignore this nutter and carry on your wonderful, enlightening and eloquent thread, Una!
Una, I’ve seen you in person and spoken with you several times, and the only thing that indicated your back history to me was your talking about it on this message board.
Una, I’ve been following this thread for a couple of days now, and my initial reaction was that of shock. I had no idea that you were going through such trials in your personal life.
I’m compelled to add to the chorus of congratulating you on having the courage to fully transition and to stop “living a lie.” I also happy that you have found such acceptance at work and in your private life.
Personally, I just wanted to add that you are one of my most respected posters on the SDMB. I’ve known you as “Anthracite” and “Una Persson” for well over a decade now. I’ve always thought of you as a highly intelligent female engineer. (Indeed, you were one of the inspirations for me to get my post-military engineering career in gear over ten years ago.)
I can’t even express how distraught I would have been if you had hurt yourself (or worse), and am elated that you were able to make it through the low point in your life and get to where you are today.
I sincerely wish you all the best.
…hi Una. Firstly just wanted to say that you are awesome, and thanks for starting this thread.
I’m not sure how I feel about what you have written here, so was hoping you could expand on it if you could. I have a number of drag queen friends: and the comparison of drag to blackface would indeed be hurtful to them. I mentioned in another thread that I recently took photographs for theCarmen Rupe Memorial Lunch: and in that room were a mix of drag queens, transgender, gay rights activists and even the policeman who many years ago used to arrest them.
The communities are quite close, at least in Wellington NZ, but I pick from your choice of words that they are not so close everywhere. I don’t think any drag performer would see what they do as a “highly campy stereotyped representation of a minority.” The drag queens (some of them prefer to be known as gender illusionists) that I have known have all been wonderful people, and performing is simply an outlet to express themselves. So was hoping you could give a few more thoughts on this. Many thanks.
Without my Fierra I would not have made it either. I would probably have gone in 2002.