This is a pretty empty analogy. Are you on trial for assaulting someone or was the assault the result of an act of self-defense? Because that is exactly what Israel is doing. They are defending themselves. These attacks on Palestinians are the direct result of being attacked by the Palestinians. Israel is targeting specific people that are responsible for attacks that have killed innocent children and civilians. The Palestinians are doing no such thing. They are targeting anyone they can, innocent or not, and this is why my sympathy for the Palestinians runs pretty thin. Israel actually knows how to differentiate between civilians and the people that are responsible for these crimes. Yes there are situations where innocent Palestinians are killed. There are times when Palestinians refuse to leave a certain site that is going to be attacked or refuse to cooperate or attack the Israeli troops as soon as they are seen coming to take a suspect into custody. These people usually end up dead. Big surprise. If you swim with the sharks your gonna get bit. The fact is that Israel **has shown great restraint. ** Any other country being attacked in this manner where their own innocent civilians were being killed would have wiped out the Palestinians along time ago. Especially considering that this is a war. Israel has also taken some steps in good faith that the Palestinians have not. Every time there is a lapse in suicide attacks Israel pulls back out of Palestinian occupied territories and lifts restrictions set on the Palestinians. The Palestinians have done nothing to reciprocate. Look, the Palestinian tactics are despicable. I don’t care if they are fighting with rocks, sticks, or bazookas. It doesn’t make what the Palestinians are doing right. They target and kill innocent women and children and celebrate American deaths. Yet at the same time they want American sympathy. It’s not gonna happen. Every time Israel attacks the Palestinians it is in direct response to an attack from the Palestinians. When the Palestinians don’t attack, Israel doesn’t attack. When Israel doesn’t attack, the Palestinians attack anyway. In other words, the Palestinians attack regardless. This is why I believe the Palestinians are the aggressors. If the Palestinians want peace they need to stop attacking Israel. It’s that simple.
Then… 2 paragraphs later…
Then… 3 paragraphs later…
McDuff, I’m not Israeli, nor am I biased one way or the other… but I have an observation which I’m compelled to make. You might NOT be trying to patronise Allessan, or myself, or any of your fellow Dopers - but the quotes I’ve lifted above prove inarguably that this is what you’re doing - and quite objectionably too I might add.
Tameralane, in particular, gave an excellent unbiased appraisal of the subtle differences at play between “tribalism” vs “religious dogmatism”. I loved that post - it summed it all up exceedingly well. Nonetheless, I’ve counted 6 posts by yourself now - and on each occasion you’ve introduced yet another “high emotion arguement button” into the equation.
And the net result? It’s my opinion that you have fallen into the dreadfully ungracious trap of choosing to harangue anyone who doesn’t agree with you. Not cool, my friend… not cool. I predict that you will now choose to add my name to the list of people to harangue now too.
Given the circumstances… the Israel Defence Force, arguably, is the most morally justified defence force on the planet. It’s a nasty place, and I point blank do NOT accept your choice of words to describe the actions by Hamas as merely being “a ragtag bunch of stone throwing suicide bombers”. That choice of words, in my opinion, amply justifies your pre-chosen agenda in this thread.
“The Palestinians” attack?
What, all of them?
What about “The Palestinians” who stay in their houses during the curfew and who would really rather go out and, say, run their businesses?
All these children and firefighters pregnant women who get caught in the crossfire between “The Palestinians” and the Israeli army… they were attacking Israel too?
You give the Terrorists legitimacy they don’t have when you assume that they speak for the whole of the people. Worse than that, by assuming that the people don’t have another voice, you force them to believe that they won’t be heard except through terrorism.
It’s perfectly human to lump whole swathes of people together as “the enemy.” It doesn’t mean it’s right or sensible or acceptable, though.
Boo Foo Foo
OK, here’s the deal.
I don’t give Arafat or the PLO any legitimacy whatsoever. They are criminals and terrorists and murderers. I would far rather that they were utterly bypassed in these precedings altogether. When I say that they are a “ragtag bunch of suicide bombers,” I mean it. They are not a legitimate army. They have far more voice than they deserve.
I am neither pro-Israel nor pro-Palestinian on this issue. All I see are two sides fighting a needless battle. Some people blame the Israeli’s entirely, some people blame the Palestinians entirely. Like I said, I mostly blame the British, but a lot of those who made the original fuckup are dead now, and everyone has to live with actions that cannot be undone.
The questions I asked, yes, they were biased. This issue makes me angry, more than anything else. I find it very hard to remain emotionally detached from it. But, I do want to know. I want to understand what in the name of all that is right goes on there. Is it fear that drives the IDF? Is it a sense of righteousness? Is there some genuine super-strategic defense plan in place that I’m just not seeing? I want to know. I have no agenda, other than that of really, really wanting to see people in this area, on both sides, stop dying.
I’m lamenting the title and OP of this post, to be honest. It has a more anti-Israel bias than I would have liked, had the overwhelming feeling of “what, again?” not taken me on a headtrip. I have tried, as much as possible, to present the fact that I don’t approve of the Suicide Bombers (there are two links to things the IDF have done I disaprove of in the OP, three links to Palestinian Terrorist actions/threats), but more importantly, that I feel by allowing them to speak for the people of Palestine and not just letting them marginalise themselves, they have been granted more legitimacy than they deserve and more power over the people of Palestine than they have any right to.
I don’t want to be seen as haranguing people, but am I allowed to say “this is wrong” without it seeming like I have a “bias” on the issue? There are people dying here. I care about that. I’d like to think that a democratic government can do better. If it can’t, then there’s no hope left, really, is there? Because it ain’t doing that much of a spot on job.
You might feel that the IDF is perfectly legitimate in its being there, and I’d agree with you. But that doesn’t mean I can’t look at what it does, the ways in which it carries out its actions, and ask, truly, if people in Israel honestly believe that this constant barrage of attacks and counter-attacks is doing anything to stop the situation.
It may be that there are enough people on either side who honestly don’t care. It may be that there are people on either side who really would rather extract revenge than work for peace. If so, then to be honest, go for it. Just try not to destablise the region and send terrorists out to places that do want peace. And try not to sound surprised when we speak up and say that killing 13 year olds is a really bad idea.
Now that’s better! 
No hard feelings McDuff. That last post was excellent.
Cheers. I’m normally much more articulate than this. Israel gets personal.
Okay, perhaps I should’ve clarified. Although I find it kind of funny I have to to you considering you had no problem lumping all the Israelis together as the enemy. I was referring to the Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the large number of Palestinians that support and agree with their position. What you and many Palestinians fail to realize is that these extremist groups do end up speaking for the Palestinians. It’s the only voice I ever hear coming out of Palestine. I’ve never heard a current resident of Palestine state that what these groups are doing is wrong. Have you? I sure haven’t. This is what makes me think that the majority of opinon in Palestine is in agreement with these extremist groups. Yes, I know that just because these groups have the loudest voice doesn’t mean that they are the only voice. However, when you (you meaning the Palestinians that disagree with the Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc) do nothing to refute what these groups are saying and do nothing to push your own voice through, it’s pretty easy to assume that you agree with these groups. McDuff, are these the same firefighters, children, and shopkeepers that throw stones (among other weapons that are used) at Israeli troops, support these extremist groups, fail to clear out of dangerous areas they are told to, and pray for the destruction of Israel and America? Chances are that they are. These people are responsible for their own actions. They hold their own fate in their own hands. If they are warned to leave a certain area (which Israel does as standard practice) and don’t, well, they have pretty much sealed their own fate. Do the Palestinian terrorist groups give any such warning when they blow up a school bus full of children? No they don’t because they are pathetic and have lightyears to go before they even compare to Israel.
McDuff, please note that I wrote that last post before I read your post to Boo Boo Foo and was under the impression that you were not condemning what these extremist groups were doing and were trying to somehow justify what they are doing. My apologies.
Another note, I should have said “when the Palestinian terrorist groups attack” instead of “when Palestinians attack” in my first post.
torben
I did no such thing. I have specifically referred to the Military of the Israeli Government, and I also, if you will notice, linked to an article containing the voices of a number of Israeli pacifists.
Who asks them? And, more specifically, who asks them to what extent they agree?
If an armed force enters your house in the refugee camp and shoots you dead, it’s because you were a terrorist. Execution without jury. Were they really terrorists, all these men who were shot? We’ll never know - but what we do know is that if they were or they weren’t, their deaths created more terrorists, more desperation.
The voices I hear coming out of Palestine and the Arab speaking world, with incredible sameness, all refer to the same thing - Israel’s presence in the occupied territories. This is the sticking point. Admittedly, I tend to read the moderate sources. Yet, the extremists who call for the total eradication of Israel are the greasy wheels, and they get wheeled out to justify the continuing attacks. It seems to me that many Palestinians do agree that Israel should leave the West Bank and Gaza, and that Hamas and Arafat are the only voices they have. It’s a sad, unfortunate truth, and it makes it very hard to separate what is really being said.
I spent very little time in Palestine when I visited Israel, but still, I was there, for a day or so. I played basketball with a bunch of ten-year olds. I took some photographs which won a minor award. I talked to a nurse who told me that one in four babies dies before they’re a year old. Whenever I hear about these ten or fourteen year olds dying, I think “I could have played basketball with them. One of those might be in the pictures stashed in a file somewhere.” I can’t dehumanise them. I can’t believe that everyone there is an inhuman monster who wishes death on every Israeli, because, well… unless they were all putting on a show for me (and, for a day, it’s possible), that fails to make much sense.
What I can believe is that they are hungry and desperate, that they are citizens of no country, that they have effectively no rights, and that they see friends and family killed every day, some with cause, some with an indiscriminate nature which frightens everyone, not only those in Palestine.
I don’t know if you’re familiar with Tom Tomorrow.
sleestak
Here are a couple of articles on the story that set this off. Bit of local perspective, just so you know I’m not the only one to draw these conclusions from that story.
And how, pray tell, are a poverty-stricken and disenfranchised bunch of people going to get their voice heard? Why would they dare, when there are so many terror groups willing to whack “collaborators” and those who disagree with them? I think it’s terribly naive to assume that, just because their voices aren’t heard, then the people are in favour. In Northern Ireland, peace campaigners and their families were threatened and attacked. There are still large communities in Northern Ireland that are in thrall to the “police” action of terror groups that are “on their side”. But even if non-terrorist Palestinians agree with the terrorists’ actions, do their thoughts alone make them criminals?
I think it helps to comprehend what’s going on to examine terrorism itself as a dumb phenomenon, in as non-emotional a way as possible, with less consideration for the motives of the individuals involved than the existence of the groups in the first place. And it helps to think of a democratic government as being the intelligent factor in the situation.
The way I see it, if certain criteria are fulfilled, then there will be a tendency towards terrorism. The first is a grievance (legitimate or imagined), the second is political disenfranchisement. Economic considerations come next, and then cultural considerations. Put these - or a combination of these - together, and you’ve got a tendency towards the growth of terrorist groups. The proliferation of different groups of terrorists in Palestine should indicate this: their existence is a function of a certain number of criteria; otherwise there’d just be one big terrorist group.
Of course there are terror groups that appear with only one or two of these criteria - Al Qaeda, for example - and some areas of legitimate grievance that haven’t resorted to terror - e.g. the Tibetans. But for the most part, this is what causes them.
Now we come to the terrorists themselves: there are always people in a society who are happy to embrace violence. These are the people who will be the foot-soldiers of terror groups. It’s no coincidence that violoent crime in Northern Ireland increased when terrorism diminished. And of course the people who join these groups, thugs and murderers that they are, will also be the most extreme proponents of the political ideology behind the terror. Thus the stated aims of the terror groups “A united Ireland”, “Push the Jews into the sea” mask the real reasons for the existence of these groups - namely “we’re being screwed and there’s nothing we can do about it”. If concessions are made towards the people, they are not necessarily being made towards the terrorists.
Therefore, my proposal is that, to diminish the existence of terrorist groups that “represent” people one has to live next to in perpetuity (as opposed to global terror groups), the intelligent party in the deal, i.e. the government, simply has to remove some of the causal factors. Painful though this seems, given all the wrongs and suffering that has been perpetuated. The granting of political and social equity, some kind of self-determination, and concessions to the needs of the group from which the terrorists sprang, is what has contributed to peace in Northern Ireland, imperfect and tenuous as it is.
IDF actions in the Occupied Territories do none of the above.
BTW, I also think that Arafat should be considered one of the “intelligent” factors in this situation. His intelligence in this appears to be profoundly wanting.
And, also, Torben, I just noticed your post after the one I replied to. Just so we kindof know where we all stand.
*stands over here ---------> *
Did you hear that Israel? Potentate Mcduff hath spoken. And since you have changed the rules on us I agree 100%. Since you say it doesn’t matter anymore I could never support any actions against terrorists. Thanks you oh thank you. Now I can dust off my peice signs and join the protesters against Bush. That monster bombed a invaded a country and plans to invade another because we all thought terrorism matters.
Which is why I have proposed this topic about British General “Bomber” Harris. Oh, it’s Israel, and not my topic? Sorry.
I do see similarity between the Brits (1939-45) and Israel all the time. It’s a siege mentality. I’ll say again, my standard observation, suicide bombing has backfired spectacularly on those that wish to cow the Israelis. Bombing central London brought out the fight in the British also.
As a US citizen keenly observing my nation since 9/11, I have to tell you that a siege mentality does strange things to some people.
But, you noted that. :smack: McDuff, you are all over the map, I can’t keep up.
Honestly, I have more sympathy for the Palestinians.
I hate Sharon, he seems evil and heartless. If he could, I bet he would completely destroy all of the Palestinians. In fact, I bet he would destroy any race if he thought it would gain him more power, even if that race was his own.
I really see Arial Sharon as an evil, almost Hitler like leader. He holds no regard for any form of life, except his own.
That’s my opinion anyway.
On an independent Palestinian state a-la Tom Tomorrow: it is no panacea. If a new Palestinian state builds up a military to menace Israel or becomes a base for terrorism against Israel, a state magnifies the problems. If the rhetoric about respecting the state of Israel is just rhetoric, a newly formed state of Palestine will solve nothing.
On the presumably accidental killing of civilians. I agree that the IDF has to make an effort to limit civilian casualties. There have been some questionable IDF shooting incidents. However, this is due in part to those who are fighting an intifada against Israel and hiding within civilian areas as cover. If one wants to strike at the perpetrators of the violence, one has to go where they are.
I notice that you are dismissive of a siege mentality:
I think you are mischaracterizing the threat to Israel, “a ragtag bunch of stone throwing suicide bombers.”
Funded and armed by states with everything from rifles, plastic explosives, grenades, and rockets. Hamas, al-Aqsa, all the rest, “ragtag”? I think that is horribly misleading.
But, of course, you are right that the IDF, like any military force, must be held accountable for its actions. So long as the use of human shields is considered, I agree completely. If a master bomb maker lives and works next to a school, it is not the IDF that is in the wrong for going there to get him. It is incumbent upon combatants to limit the risks they impose upon civilian populations, “ragtag” or not.
[Content deleted. --Gaudere]
For some odd reason, I thought this thread was in the Pit. I’ve asked a Mod to remove that posting.
At any rate, McDuff; you are patronizing people here with your simplistic and incorrect descriptions of what’s happening and why it’s happening. Your comment about the My Lai massacre is also pure fantasy.
I agree with you with respect to Ireland. They don’t want to let go of the fighting because that itself is part of the heritage now, it’s the tradition. The extremists are still out in force - they might not all be armed, and they may be using politics instead of crude weaponry, but the level of hostility is relatively unchanged, the root conflict still unresolvable.
So I see the same thing happening in Palestine after the current tensions abate (when and if)…there are still going to be factions within each side that will disagree with whatever Peace plan is in effect, support for them will rise and fall, there will still be innocent victims…all the rest of the world can do is stand back and urge restraint on both sides, while cheering the good guys in each. So I have no problem w/cautioning the IDF in that spirit. “Do not become part of the problem” in other words. The whole of the Palestinian population is not the bad guy. Likewise, it would be wrong to lay blame at the feet of the IDF as a whole - they are being targeted, shot at, ambushed…they have the task of separating the civilian Palestinians wearing explosives from the rest of the civilian Palestinians. Not an easy job obviously, since too many have been successful.