Attention Israel: Enough is Enough.

I was assuming that you were refering to the killing of innocent people, as I was.

Palestinian suicide bombers are killing innocent people. The Israeli army is killing innocent people. They are both wrong, they are both ‘killers’.

The difference one is a democratically elected government, the other is a bunch of fanatics.

As Boo Boo Foo said, the Palestinians have been politically stupid - they could have avoided this situation by accepting earlier the presence of their new ‘neighbour’. The Palestinians suicide bombers should stop their dirty work, but they are bunch of fanatics.

A government, especially a powerful one, has a greater burden of responsibility to do good.

McDuff

Yes, along the lines of “some of my best friends are . . .”

The difference, antechinus, is that the murderer, even if he’s in uniform, faces court-martial when he’s found out.

X: your assertions are based on prejudice.

Fair enough.

Now, let tell you a little story.

I have spent quite a bit of time arguing with people recently about Immigration and Asylum in the UK. Many of those who are very “withdraw from the Genva Convention” about it often criticise those of us who are pro-immigration and anti-border controls. “You keep calling us racist,” they claim, “you can’t have a proper debate if insults are thrown about.”

Now, some people on my side have a problem with this. “They are racist,” they moan. “Some of what they say is cut from Hitler’s cloth!” I, for the most part, agreed with them. However, I decided that enough was enough. The first thing I did was to agree with my opponents outright. “Yes,” I said, “all this talk of racism stifles free debate, so let’s have none of it and talk about the facts.” Some time later, they were dead in the water.

My point? If you want to prove me wrong about something, don’t bother calling the “you’re an anti-semite” stuff. It might be right, it might be wrong. Who is to say? You won’t convince anyone who knows me that I am, but you might convince yourself, for all the good it will do you.

On the other hand, if you were to argue with me on the issues presented, and defeat me on those, that would be a resounding victory that would, no doubt, influence some of those on the SDMB, as well as the other people who I meet (after all, I have said before that I have no fear of having been wrong in the past, but I would hate to be wrong now - prove me wrong and watch me change my mind!)

This can either become a slanging match along the lines of “you’re an anti-semite!” “am not!” “are too!”, or it can be a debate on the issues. I have less than zero interest in taking part in the former, because it’s utterly pointless. If you are convinced that I am anti-semitic, then feel free to believe it: I shan’t waste my time denying it to you.

Thank you for the lecture, McDuff, I’ll bear it all in mind the next time you turn up with a rant about yet another Isreali ‘crime’

Or not.

I don’t know candida. It looks like an interesting plan: make racist statements & have a racist agenda but demand those who are against you to not mention your racism.

Oh, and Monty, your assertations are based on prejudice too.

See how easy it is to argue like that!

Oh, no nice liberal is racist, Monty!

They’re just continually horrified at the endless crimes all us psychopathic Jews commit.

When we were weak, they found us contemptible, now we are strong they find us contemptible, if only we would disappear and leave them with just nice acceptable people to pity.

People… I’d like to point out something in McDuff’s defence.

Earlier in this thread, I think about 3 days ago, I took McDuff to task over his style in the opening posts in this thread. I made some observations which COULD have resulted in McDuff really going to town on me in terms of flaming.

However, McDuff took on board my post and considered it in a reasonable manner, and actually modified his tone somewhat. In turn, I thanked him for doing so and applauded his post where he did so.

This says to me that McDuff wishes to be reasonable. And that ultimately, like most of us, he wishes to improve his knowledge base.

May I ask that you at least ponder his earlier magnanimous gesture for what it’s worth?

Prejudice of what? What I am saying is that both Palestine and Israel are terrorist nations except Israel is better at it. Who am I being prejudiced against?

Israel. For one thing, it’s not a terrorist nation. Kind of odd terrorism, if it is, to assist the people you’re terrorizing with setting up what could’ve been a nation.

Hmm…

In an attempt to perchance strike somewhat of a concilliatory tone, I wonder if I might suggest something we can all agree on?

When the words “terrorism” or “terrorist” can be applied to countries such as Israel, the USA, the UK etc etc as much as they can be applied to organisations such as the IRA and PLA, we may be able to take this as a sign that the word ceases to have any meaning beyond “kills people,” with possible “not nice” overtones, and that it has gone the way of “postmodern” and “communist” into the Buzzword Land. “Terrorist” should not be used as a synonym for “Bad” or “Evil” or “Aggressive” or “Militant” or, indeed, for whatever else you want it to mean, or it will end up losing its meaning, and thus its effectiveness as a word.

Personally, as I have said, I don’t see Israel as a “Terrorist” nation, or the IDF as a Terrorist organisation. Israel is a democratic country, (which numbers Arabs and Christians among its electorate, not only Jews) This is precisely why I believe it should be held to higher standards of conduct than if it were just a terrorist organisation. For a start, a terrorist organisation, like any other, is, to a certain extent “opt in, opt out,” wheras a Nation is something you’re stuck with.

Also, thank you to Boo Boo Foo for being my advocate in this thread following the disastrous OP

No dice. Calling my country a terrorist organization doesn’t wash with me.

Monty:

That is what the debate is all about Monty, in a responsible and law abiding nation the murderer in uniform would be punished.

From this article:

“The “(1982)” massacre, during which between 800 and 2000 Palestinian refugees were slaughtered, was carried out by an Israeli-allied Christian militia during Israel’s war against Lebanon.
An Israeli tribunal in 1983 found Mr Sharon, then defence minister, to be indirectly but personally responsible. Mr Sharon was forced to resign but was not prosecuted.”

In a country that does not prosecute for this sort of activity, you will continue to have murderers in the armed forces and government (please remember at this point that I am not saying that Palestine ‘government’ is any better).

If the UK ever slaughtered 1000 innocent people, I am sure the person with responsibility would have been punished.

The only legal action taken against the current leader of Israel is from outside the Israeli government.

Monty and candida: I know there is no convincing you with logic, but can you at least understand how others around the world think when they see acts of violence by a supposedly civilised nation.

Candida: Why do you continue to play the professional victim? No one is persecuting you. Like I said earlier, the Jewish faith embraces peace. I think it is good that you spread the word of peace and I admire this aspect of the Jewish faith. It is violence perpetrated by the Israeli government that people around the world are concerned about. Please dont get the two confused.

Monty

Are you talking to me here? If you are, then I’m afraid that you managed to get entirely the opposite meaning from my last post than I put there.

Or, in other words, calling Israel or the USA or the UK a “terrorist” nation simply because they happen to do things like wage wars is innaccurate and does the language a disservice, as well as nullifying the effectiveness of the word “terrorist” in its correct usage.

Or, in simple terms, “I don’t think Israel/the USA/the UK/Japan/Vatican City are terrorist nations.”

Of course, if you weren’t talking to me and were merely indicating your intransigence over X~Slayer(ALE)'s statement, then ignore this post.

Candida If it will help you visualise that people can be anti-specific actions of the Israeli Government without necessarily wishing ill on all Israelis or Jews, consider either Rush Limbaugh’s villification of the president of the USA from 1992 to 2000. I doubt anyone would claim that Rush hates all Americans and America (although I have doubts about his grasp of reality, not least his continuing need to blame said president for things that happen AFTER he left office), yet he opposed the highest ranking politician in the land without hestitation because he disagreed with his policies. The same can be said for those who oppose the War in Iraq now. The don’t hate all Americans or America, yet oppose the actions of the ruling administration.

See how it works?

If you are of the opinion that the leaders of the army of the UK (and of the US) have never been “indirectly but personally responsible” for the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians, might I direct your attention to the fire-bombing campagn of WW2?

I believe that a single raid over Dresden killed more civilians than the IDF has in its entire history.

Where were the prosecutions for that?

Or, if that is too long ago, what about the US and its bombing campaign in Viet Nam?

Of course, those examples were different, in that the deaths of civilians were deliberate and ordered by the generals in charge - whereas the deaths of the Palistinians in the incident cited were actually caused by other (Christian) Arabs, and there is no allegation that Sharon actually ordered them - check out the indictment in the Belgian court. The allegation is that, as general in charge, he must bear the responsibility even if he was totally unaware of the impending massacre.

So, given that he was fired in disgrace - a fate not meeted out to the US and UK generals responsible for deliberate civilian deaths - am I to presume that Israel is more “responsible and law abiding” than the UK, which never so far as I know punished “Bomber” Harris for his quite deliberate policy of incinerating innocent civilians?

Yep, it didn’t even take two pages for the same old crap to be brought up.

McDuff - You’re going to have to get used to the “anti-Semitic” crap being thrown at you for even suggesting Israeli wrong-doing. IMHO, the only way to try and address issues and stay on topic in relation to Israel (on this board) is to accept a percentage of posters will always try and make as much distracting noise as possible by turning the attention on you, or your reasons for posting, or distract you by misrepresenting what you say … anything but address the issues. You’ve found one of those in this thread. Welcome to my world :slight_smile:

Good luck with the smearing, the accusations, the misrepresentations, the quoting out of context, etc, etc – I’m sure you understand it’s designed to intimidate you to not post on the subject again.

Btw, welcome to the board and I hope you stick around.

Malthus

You want a British person’s response?

Were those firebombing raids to be carried out today, by British forces, I would DEMAND (as would, I have no doubt, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch et al) that the generals responsible be tried by the ICC. As it is, I, and several others, are keeping a close watch on a certain Mr A Blair’s actions during the war. Although the American forces are not under the jurisdiction of the ICC, “Operation Shock and Awe” certainly counts as a War Crime according to a not-very-creative reading of the Genva Convention, the ECHR, and the ICC, and so British involvement may end up with Mr A Blair in the dock unless he is very careful exactly where he sticks his forces.

If you like, you can also point out that the British beat the Nazi party to the invention of the Concentration Camp during the Boer War. That, too, would result in immediate prosecution right up the scale to Mr A Blair if it happened today. And that, too, I view as an episode in British History that we could well do without, but cannot be rid of and must live with and learn from.

“It happened in the past,” or “they did it first” is not an excuse. Not for us, not for anyone. It might be terribly unfair on Mr Blair that, as much as he may want to be like Churchill, he cannot posibly allow the firebombing of a city without facing arrest under the laws of his own country, but that’s just the way it crumbles for him, I’m afraid.

Although Sharon’s “war crimes” are an interesting aside, what worries me much more is the actions of leaders and armies today, with the intent to prevent future death, rather than merely to rebuke past atrocities.