Well then you might have said that, but instead you did say that you wouldn’t put it past people like me to avoid Jew-baiting/Jew-killing. A very unfortunate choice of words imo, because it just proves that one can be undeniably pro-Jewish, pro-Israel, pro-war, and whatever else, and still run the risk of being smeared with the anti-Semitism brush. And by someone who might have agreed with me under other circumstances…good show!
Oh well.
We have the last ever TV interview with Rachel Corrie on our programme in about 15 minutes time. Our current footprint doesn’t reach northern Europe or the US, but I guess it could get passed on to other networks from tomorrow.
It’s just being satellite fed through now, and I’m watching it, and I wish you all could have a chance to see it too: this bright, beautiful, impassioned and driven young woman who is no longer on this earth.
I thought with a name like candida she would have understood my sense of humour. Oh well.
We should try putting ourselves in the shoes of the Palestinians, who are having their land gradually and continually taken from them.
jjimm
Just jump over the distressing images. Find the facts we will have so many distressing images in a few days, that it vill be enough fot a decade.
Unless the photographers are shot, of course:
Pentagaon Threatens to Kill Independent Reporters in Iraq
Read the whole story from:
http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Iraq/031003_pentagaon_threatens_to_kill_inde.htm
Henry
Okay, antechinus. I’m in their shoes right now. Which pair did I find? The pair worn by someone who wants to have an honest dialogue with a nation with a right to exist and is claiming the same right for his people, or the pair topped by a fanatic on his way to kill some children just to kill?
I’m on the side of the peaceful shoe-wearing guy. The killer is just a killer, AFAIC.
I am on the side of the peaceful shoe-wearing guy too.
The point is that the peaceful shoe-wearing guy becomes the fanatic when:
What turns a person into an explosive laden fanatic? Desparation and nothing to loose.
I do not condone what they are doing at all, just as I do not condone the Israeli army killing innocent people. Continuing to attack Palestinians does not reduce the incidence of suicide bombers. The violence just comes back.
I agree that “a killer is just a killer”, even if they are in a helicopter gunship, or firing a cruise missile.
In the interests of fairness however, it should be noted that the Palestinian Arabs have adopted a policy since the 1930’s of outright rejection of a Jewish state, and that this ONLY changed in 1995. It’s no stretching of the truth to state that the Palestinian Arabs have politically backed the wrong horse, time and time again during that period, and in doing so, brought many of their problems upon themselves by demonstrating they were both untrustworthy, and deadly.
I would add, that I don’t wish to take sides - merely my goal is to be reasonable and honest. I’m not Jewish, nor am I a religious guy at all, but at a military point of view? I would have done everything the Israeli’s have done since 1948… including 1967 and 1973. As the old saying goes… locks are only meant to keep honest people out. If your neighbours are blatantly determined to kill you, then it’s not unreasonable to adopt a survivalist position.
My point is this - the Palestinian Arabs have made some epicly dumb moves over the years - and they continue to do so. It’s a shitfight now - no doubts about it - but I don’t think I’m out of line in stating the Palestinians have painted themselves into the corner they’re in - at least, when you consider the timelines of history since 1929.
Then you are equating a soldier who is in the defense of his country with a rabid piece of trash for a human being murderer. And you are wrong in that.
This may be, but for now, the Isreali Lobby will find few better partners. Keep in mind a lot of the areas in this so-called “Palastine”, are also holy sites to us too (just little things, like the place of Jesus’ birth --which BTW those vermin used as a hide out last year; blood boils just thinking about that!–), and belive you me, we are not thrilled to see Isreal having a terrible time trying to administer the area.
While historically anti-war (this century anyways), there is little doubt that the Church would throw in & support Isreal, should a larger conflict commence.
My sister got her car repossed last year, and I gurandamntee you she much better reasons for missing her payments than the PA has for opposing Isreali occupation. Since she lost that “property”, should she go bomb the repo guy’s children & then pander cheaply for local support of such things?
This is so silly. So there are Jewish settlers in the west bank. Big Deal. There are migrant Palastinian workers in Isreal proper too you know.
They need to cut it out with the bombing and complaining already. Don’t they realise that without Isreal, they wouldn’t even have potable water?
Come now - there’s a big difference between being a “migrant worker” and a “settler.”
Do you realise that thanks to Israeli troops, half the drinking water in one area was taken, because they destroyed two wells? Just one of the things Rachel Corrie witnessed to in the last interview.
Try to find one of the many docos and reports into the settlements in Palestine. Take a look at those protected, guarded compounds, and the lives and status of the Israelis within them, and then compare it to that of Palestinian migrant workers in Israel.
You really don’t appear to know much about human nature.
I is odd that the isrealis feel so threatened now. It is only them in the region with any nuclear, biological or chemical weapons. They have effective peace treaties with most of their neighbours, who are sick to death of the whole issue. There only real security issue now is the palestinians.
They could shoot all of them or negotiate, or accept a running sore for the next 50 years.
Apologies for the lateness of this post, and its length.
Saen
Thank you for quoting me out of context. As we all know, when I said “It doesn’t matter that Israel is under attack by terrorist factions” that I meant everyone in Israel can go to hell for all I care. It wasn’t, by any means a sentence fragment which formed the first part of a point something along the lines of “This is not sufficient justification for certain actions.” I appreciate that some people, having read the rest ofthe post, may have been confused by the context and missed your insightful observations, so I am pleased you were able to point out the truth behind my words.
Beagle
As noted, the OP was posted rather more emotionally than I would have liked, looking back at it. Damn the lack of post editing, eh?
The point I wish to make is this. The actions being carried out by the IDF are treading the dangerous line between overenthusiasm and unjustifiable. Were the British Army, or, indeed, the German, French, US or Japanese, perpetrating these acts, I would want some very hard questions asked by those in power about exactly why they were taking place. As a citizen of one of these countries, were it the British Army I would fully expect my government to pay attention to Amnesty International. This expectation would not be assuaged, on my part, by the reality of terrorism. The whole point of having a civilisation and a trained army is that we should be held to a higher standard than terrorists and mercenaries. Otherwise, what point is there to the fight?
Given this, I wish to better understand exactly why the Israeli army/government continues to enjoy a seeming carte blanche to do what it likes. People imagined that the UNSC lost its meaning this week, but it has never, really, had any true meaning, and this has been underlined by Israel’s actions again and again.
And I, to be honest, agree with you here. The point I wished to make with that cartoon was in the first few panels; that whether “the Palestinians” or “The Israelis” are “the bad guys” or not depends entirely on your point of view. The issue, of course, being that from the point of view the IDF is labouring under, going and taking out Palestinian activists is perfectly acceptable, but because those they are going in and taking out are labouring under the opposite view, this doesn’t solve the problem of suicide bombers and other terrorists.
I’m very big on searching for solutions to problems. I don’t think an independent Palestinan state is the be all and end all, or indeed, any type of real answer (although recognising that the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories are essentially sans Government of any form and taking steps to address that in a way which is actually helpful would be a start). I am also convinced that the military action, from both sides, has never and will never even approximate “helpful”.
Again, I agree with you here. If the IDF have to take out a bomb-maker who lives next to a school, they have to do that. Some measure of responsibility must, of course, be placed on the bomb maker who has chosen to set up shop next to a school, believing that this will help him.
However, there is a burden on the IDF to acknowledge the inherent risks and do all they can to minimise them. If the IDF are doing this, then so be it. If this is the case, however, it must make this information available to us, not least so we can send them over people from the Marines and SBS who can teach them the combat skills they apparently haven’t mastered yet.
Monty
Then please feel free to tell me what is happening and why it happened. I’m ont the only person who feels this way - as I have cited here, there are a good few people who live in Israel who have severe reservations as to the extent that the IDF have been allowed to run free recently. Are the editors of Ha’retz beign patronizing because of their simplistic and incorrect descriptions also?
Which bit of my comment about My Lai was incorrect?
Candida
Again, thank you for exposing the inherent anti-semetism in my words. Of course, all my comments up to now have been concisely and accurately summarised in your post.
In case you missed it, everyone, my thought process is as follows:
For everyone who missed it in my posts, when I said “WHY is the Israeli army not held accountable for its actions?” that meant “It’s all the fault of dem Kikes!” And when I said “The Israeli army is the military wing of a democratically elected government which receives Aid from the USA. Therefore, it should act like it. “Waa, but they started it” is NOT an excuse,” that, too, meant “It’s all the fault of dem Kikes!” When I said “either someone is not taking responsibility, which is bad, or someone IS, which is worse,” I was sitting at my keyboard frothing at the mouth, hoping that someone would manage to read my subtext “It’s all the fault of dem Kikes!” And, here’s the thing that might have thrown you all off (so I’m pleased someone was paying attention), when I said “I blame the British,” that, too, meant “It’s all the fault of dem Kikes!”
Of course, what this subtext in all my posts means is that I am a Jew Hating white supremacist, definitely anti-Semetic and certainly a fully paid-up member of the Nazi party. Because of this, you can all feel free to ignore any points I’m making or questions I’m asking about the situation, because I’m anti-semetic and therefore nothing I ask can have any merit, QED.
On the other hand, there are some people here who apparently live in a strange Bizarro World where any criticism of Israel doesn’t always spring from the mouth of an Anti-Semetic thug who wishes he could have joined the Hitler Youth. In such a world, there is such a thing as an ad hominem attack. Oviously, such things are not known to exist in the world of free thinking individuals such as yourself, Candida, but I hope you won’t mind if I and the others who share this strange fantasy world carry on as if it was a possibility to discuss this issue without having the discussion break into a meaningless fudge of “You’re Anti-Semetic!” “Am not!” tit-for-tat point scoring.
IEatFood
Indeed. And it is possible, through various means, to limit them so that, for the most part, they remain there. There are West-Hating Intifada-Preaching Islamist clerics in the UK - but they can’t raise armies and we tend to stop them bombing places without killing many children. Similarly in many places in the West. A population with a vested interest in not bombing people and not overthrowing the government, such as we have in Western Nations, is a far better defense against home-grown terrorism than any amount of bombs and bulldozers.
Like I asked before, do you honestly believe that the best thing to do would be for Sharon to go and take out EVERYONE in one fell swoop? For the record, I agree with you that doing this would solve the short term problem of terrorism, but I have to ask: have you any idea what this would do to the region? And, more to the point, don’t you realise that you’re proposing what has been referred to previously as “Ethnic Cleansing” and “Genocide”? Sure, it could be said that the PA want to do the same to the Israelis, but since when does this make it “right”?
As it happens, this has nothing to do with addressing the point. From your own admission, Bin Laden got rich on Coca Cola dollars and ended up hating the USA. The point you thought you were attacking was “how do you make an Islamist mad.” Nothing to do with the quality of life or otherwise. Just mad.
And as for what it has to do with Israel, again, best ask the Islamists.
Boo Boo Foo
Given our starting positions at odds in this thread, I am rather heartened to see that I agree with this quote in its entirety, and with most of what else you posted in this thread.
Again, agreed. The situation is terrible, but history is made not only of events but of people’s reactions to them. Everyone involved has a responsibility to acquit themselves the best way they can do in this situation - neither side can have that responsibility taken away from them just because the other side is, apparently, a bunch of bastards.
The bit about that looie being the scapegoat for the brutalilty of the United State Army. That comment alone proves you’ve no rational appraisal on this issue and thus your comments aren’t worth listening to.
McDuff
What I don’t live in is a “bizarro world” where each and every accusation made about Israel, the IDF and so on is to be taken as some kind of self-evident truth just because some ranter demands that it is the case, neither do I live in a “bizarro world” where I even have to take every such accusation at face value.
I’d be the last to suggest that criticism of Israel makes one a Jew-hater, I’ve had a lifetime of it and I’m no self-hater, what is for sure is that obsessive accusation - where it’s always “IDF murderers” ‘do something’ but “poor victimized suicide bombers in desperation” (never “Palestinian terrorist killers”, note) ‘do something’ - provides a damn good cover for those who are.
It’s “anti-Semitic”, by the way.
Monty
Fair enough. Don’t listen to me then. No skin off my nose, old son.
Out of the whole massacre, there was only enough evidence to convict one man, although the whole company were undoubtedly involved, and there is plenty of evidence that My Lai wasn’t an isolated incident. The fact that Lt Calley alone was sentenced made many people believe that he was unfairly carrying the whole can for actions which many more soldiers than him had taken part in. YMMV, of course.
Candida
Ahh. And you can find those sentiments in my posts, can you? In them, I, of course, claimed that the evil vicious nasty IDF were beating up on the poor helpless Palestinians.
When I said “I’m not supporting the PA’s actions,” or “I don’t give Arafat or the PLO any legitimacy whatsoever. They are criminals and terrorists and murderers. I would far rather that they were utterly bypassed in these precedings altogether,” did that not clue you in? Or would you rather have believed that I was just giving out the old pat rhetoric because that’s what you expected me to be saying?
Also, thank you for your correction of my spelling. I’ll try and bear that in mind for future reference.
I find the Palestinean way of thinking quite unfathomable. They seem surprised that Israel is quite capable of using Terror against Terror. They seem to be pointing Israeli tactics as terrorist but try to downplay their own terrorism. Palestinean civilians get hurt, well duh… Israeli civilians get hurt too and as a matter of fact, they are the palestineans main target. At least the israelis try to have a terrorist target but everyone knows they dont give a damn whether they miss or not and this situation would be highly objectionable if it werent for the fact that they are being terrorized first. They are 2 terrorist nations fighting each other like rabid dogs and each are calling upon the world to stop the other.
Now its quite obvious to anyone (i mean anyone) that Israel is the big dog here. nipping this dog’s heels or tail gets you a giant bite at the neck. Its time to stop trying to bite this big dog. If it bites you first, then can the world justify going after Israel. Until then, palestine is getting what it deserves.
Stop the terror. Look for another way!
I saw the articles in this thread. There were children next to a burning tank. WHY??!! There was another tank looking for what destroyed this tank and children should NOT be anywhere near this place. Civilians getting shot in this scenario are not practicing what should be finely tuned palestinean instinct. Everyone there knows Israeli tanks mean death. Why do they go near one?
I dont know…
Everyone doesn’t know that, X. Your assertion is baseless, and really should be in the BBQ Pit.
Excuse me, Monty but i am not flaming anyone here. My assertions are based on the whole history of Israel. No one has beaten this rag tag motley group of jews. They went from being terrorist themselves to a fully mechanized, efficient and superbly coordinated military fighting machine. The fact that it beat back 3 countries that simultaneously attacked it gives Israel the Big Dog status. To deny this is delusional. to overcome this enemy, one needs to know this enemy. Anyone thinking they can beat Isreal in its own game is asking to eat a big can of whoop-ass.