It’s interesting to note that the only male who I know in real life who insists that his girlfriends are model-skinny does it completely out of insecurity. He’s dating one of my best friends right now, who is about 5’8" and wears a size 4 or 6. She looks like a model. He tells her she’s fat. Even SHE knows it’s because he’s screwed up, not her.
He also goes on and on about how his ex-wife had “fat ankles.” I’ve seen pictures of his ex - she looked certifiably anorexic. Same man has many, many other issues with women - he’s a nutcase.
On the other hand, and Byzantine you can probably back me up on this, the vast majority of men seem to be attracted to well-proportioned women, and well-proportioned seems to be a wiiiiiide definition of heights, weights, and sizes. I’ve weighed as little as 135 and as much as 172 (I’m 5’6.5") and I always have been hit on in bars/social settings/etc. It may have been slightly more when I was 21 years old and 135 pounds, but not that much more than when I was 172. We women sometimes overemphasize body images, I think. Yeah, there’s some jerks out there who think thin = beautiful, but most men aren’t that way.
Athena – yes, I’ll back you up on that. In most of my weights (except for 250) I’ve been relatively well proportioned. But an interesting side note is that right now, I’ve been hit on more than any other time in my life! I never attracted many men when I was anorexic but I think it was because I never really went out much because I was too sick to do so. Probably the same thing when I was at 250.
I really do understand that people are attracted to people for an amazing number of reasons. It’s a big world and there are a lot of differences. Most men I know are comfortable enough with themselves that they don’t seek out “arm candy” just to impress someone else. I’m not saying that if your girlfriend is beautiful you love her only as “arm candy”; what I’m saying is that if you ONLY choose women who fit into a very narrow, extreme category, and would rather DIE than be seen with anyone who doesn’t fit those rigid standards, than I would suggest that there may be some unresolved issues inside you.
As I’ve posted before I like both men and women and I’ve dated/loved from all over: short/tall/big/small/black/white… yes, there is a certain amount of “looks” involved but obviously, I can find something beautiful in almost everyone.
Youch! I got the big “fuck you!” from ChrisCTP! Great! But alas, sweet cheeks… I have to decline. A lot of anger in this thread! Hmmmm… why? Can I respond to you with a “Go have a donut!”? No? Too insensitive, huh? OK… how about “MOOOOOO!”? Still too insensitive? Sorry… How about just the plain old “Fuck you!” You seem to find that acceptable. (don’t we all feel like adults now?)
Read Omniscient’s post… said very well. I especially like the:
Byzantine says:
Well, that’s nice, but expecting it doesn’t make it so. And if you believe what you write, then you should tolerate and understand any misguided soul who doesn’t give you what you want. Expecting things from people only leads to disappointment. Even these basic, civilized things you are asking for.
JillGat… thank you for giving me something to read from the female point of view that isn’t angry.
Finally, to Byzantine. Not that you care, but I have to say congrats for accepting who you are. I don’t hate anyone for who or what they are or what they do, as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone else. What I do hate is the idea of victimhood and the feeling that everone else is to blame for one’s own situation… most people can find who to blame (and the solution to their problems) by looking in the mirror. Salvation, I’m told, lies within.
Trust me, Mister Sensitivity, after your post I don’t expect anything but more hate. More vitriol. I would like some understanding but, very obviously, you are incapable of that.
Yes, JillGat posted a wonderful, accepting post, without anger or hate. Too bad you can’t do the same.
Don’t say, “finally, to Byzantine, not that you care.” Obviously, by my time, attention, and detail I care very much. Yes, I do accept myself. I don’t think anyone is claiming victimhood. I think a lot of posters just wanted to share. They were not trying to justify or excuse themselves. They shared. Just as I have done, just as you have done. Abusing, attacking, fling hate, seems to have come, first, from you.
If not, I gave it up long ago… but you still want to harp on that. If you do, attack those who have done it to you, not me. I stopped. I went out of my way to try to understand. Attack me if you will but attack ME for what I have SAID. Don’t make me responsible for everyone else on that thread.
There is nothing wrong with sharing in my book. It seems to be a problem for you. Again, it seems to be a problem with you. I don’t blame anyone for the struggles or problems in my life. Nor did any of the other posters. No blame, just talking about it. You jumped in.
why are you making this complicated?
thin != beautiful
fat != beautiful
its simple, and variable with each person. one guy finds that beautiful while another doesnt. its true though, because of constant model-image brain washing in the media that people “think” one thing is more beautiful than something else because thats what is being said on fashion tv. i for one could not imagine myself in a relationship with a fat person. i wouldnt feel comfortable. but thats just me. im not saying fat people are ugly, boring or anything like that. im just saying that we all have a place where we feel comfortable and its usually at home.
My apologies. Sometimes, tone is not reflected in a posting. The reason I wrote “not that you care” is because from all I’ve read from you, I wouldn’t think it would matter what someone said about you or if someone gave their approval. You seem to have a handle on your self-esteem.
There was no venom in my post toward you. But after re-reading it, I can see how you may have misinterpreted it. The first sentence of that last paragraph was for you… the rest of that paragraph was my attempt to explain to the readers out here what truly does frustrate me. For the most part, I agree with you… and as you can tell from the posting in the other thread, I have been there, so I understand a lot of what is being said here.
Maybe I misinterpreted many of the postings when I said that “people are looking for someone to blame.” But that’s what I’ve read in these two threads… The one main reason that fat people feel bad in our society is because society has decided that this is an undesirable look. Therefore, discrimination and scorn follow. What I’ve read seems to have the “accept me for who I am, society! Hurry up and change, because I’m not!”. Like I said, that’s nice, but it’s not reality. I chose to change… maybe because I wasn’t happy with myself or the way I looked, or I was too insecure to thumb my nose at social norms… but I changed. It’s easy to blame everyone else but yourself, but in my case, when I looked in the mirror, the only one that was forcing that Whopper down my throat was me.
If you were referring to my first paragraph when you say that I “fling hate”, well, that was written with tongue-firmly-implanted-in-cheek. I thought that was clear, but… perhaps it was not.
Mister Sensitivity – It matters to me what anyone says to me or about me. As I’ve posted before, you, another poster, are just as real to me as anyone else in my life.
I do understand our points that diverge. I really do. But I’ve tried, very hard, and very well, I thought, to make those points clear without any further vitriol toward you. Or anyone. Thank you for seeing that. Thank you for responding to me in kind. We may not agree but there is no reason to just “bash” each other.
Society or even Joe the Guy on the Corner deciding that “this is an undesirable look” is just that. An almost arbitrary decision, governed by … the media? His mom? Some other thing?.. as to WHAT is okay. Can we at least agree that this, the acceptable standard, is so arbitrary that none, not a single one of us, can measure up? It’s so silly and “just what is in at the moment” that none of us, can even hope to fit a small part of it at any given time?
The standards, the rules, the OKAYNESS just shift around from time to time, day to day. They shift so that no one here can say, without reservation, “I fit the rule!” You might fit it for that day but, then again, there is tomorrow. The media, even our own thoughts, shift the “rules” around. We judge each other not just by what is in our hearts or heads, by also by what we perceive is okay.
Perhaps I did miss some of your “jokes”. Others have missed mine. If I took it wrong than I took it wrong. Instead of just craping all over each other, it seems to me, we have more points we agree upon than otherwise.
I once worked with a guy in the Navy who was married to a woman who weighed over 350 pounds. He was really really skinny, so Jack Spratt and all that. He used to tell people that he dated (and finally married) huge women because he didn’t have to worry about them cheating on him or leaving him. And from what I saw, he really treated her like crap. He would shrug and say “It’s not like she’ll find anyone else that will put up with her fat ass.” Needless to say he was a major dickhead.
Call it Karma or whatever; but he died falling into a drydock in Bremerton. Apparently he was sitting on the safety chain surrounding the drydock smoking a cigarette. A much larger person sitting on the chain a few yards down got up and the chain flipped this moron over the edge. Just thought I’d share.
“We’ve all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true.”
[[BjOrn: why are you making this complicated?
thin != beautiful
fat != beautiful]]
Not that anyone should really care or take personally what my standards of beauty are (and I think some of you are caring way too much what a couple of people think), but I think “fit” is a lot more beautiful than “thin.” Some of these models on magazine covers have no calves and no tone to their arms. I, myself, don’t find that beautiful. I was going to add a disclaimer here that as a heterosexual woman, those pictures aren’t being marketed to me, but wait… those are the covers of Women’s magazines!
First of all:
I’m too reactive for my own good. I’ve never had a short temper, but it’s been a struggle for me to be tolerant of the intolerant. So…
Secondly:
To the men I gave a “fuck you” to in the OP:
As much as you shouldn’t concern yourselves with what I look like, or why, I shouldn’t have concerned myself with your preferences to the opposite. My OP sounded like I don’t believe that thin women are intelligent or worthwhile people, and that was not my intention.
While I still, and probably will always believe, that appearances should be secondary to personality, I honestly hope that everyone (especially everyone here) will get to be in love with their “perfect” person.
“…all the prettiest girls live in Des Moines…”
–Jack Kerouac, On the Road
Chris’ Homepage: Domestic Bliss
I find it hilarious people are here in a forum where a person’s written words and intellect stand alone and unaided arguing about personal appearance.
Who gives a shit? This is one place where it doesn’t matter if you’re fat or thin or have great hairy warts growin’ out your face. I couldn’t care less if you have an ass like a ten-year-old boy or one that would require circumnavigation; your words alone here count for something.
The efforts by those who are preoccupied enough with their current body fat ratio to put these data in our face speaks more to shallowness and egocentrism than anything else. Insisting we look at pictures of you and declare our prejudices is a form of cyber-narcicism I do not understand. You argue that appearance should mean little, yet here you are loudly proclaiming “LOOK AT ME and judge me by my appearance!” For why?
Is it because you’re not quite comfortable with your own self-image and seek public support? Is it because your inner peace depends on what others think of you, appearance wise? Or is it just a method to point out the hypocrisy of people who judge others on the color of their skin or their ectomorphism? I dunno.
Here we have as level an intellectual playing field as we can get, and now we have to introduce our physical characteristics into it. Please. I hope our African-American members don’t now feel obligated to stand up and say “Hey, Lookit me! I’m black and let’s hear from you racists out there!”
Nope. Not true. There might be a little cultural influence but it’s mostly genetic. One of those TLC shows did an epsiode on this. There was some study where they went around the world and showed people drawings and asked them to point out the nicest body. There was pretty much universal agreement.
What you’re talking about is basically an example of the typical politically correct “everybody is special in their own way” BS. Even if you look at most old paintings of women they’re not that fat. Sure there might be some exceptional examples that can be pointed out, but that doesn’t mean anything.
Take a look at those carvings of people having sex on Indian temples. Do those women look fat?
Byzantine sez:
Yeah, I know, but I just wanted to say that it’s a little ridiculous to call people bigots for something like that.
OpalCat sez:
These men are mocked and ridiculed by society in general, and rightfully so.
That may be what you want. But if you re-read some of the posts in the thread you’ll see slightly stronger demands than that.
I reserve the right to mock, deride and taunt anyone, for any characteristic, no matter how shallow or low-brow. No one can demand that I stop. Well, they can demand all they want…
then konrad said: “These men are mocked and ridiculed by society in general, and rightfully so.”
What??? What part of society are you talking about? The junior highschool variety? Or do you get your views of the world through Melrose Place and 90210? This statement is so absurd it boggles the mind. It’s threads like these that let you really get to see how immature and unsophisticated some people around here really are.
Actually, what that proved was that men liked a certain waist-hip ratio. Men were inevitably drawn to women whose waists measured 70 percent of the size of their hips, regardless of their actual overall physical size. In fact, many of the men selected the larger-size women who had that waist-to-hip ratio over the skinny, boyish-looking body type so popular on the runways these days.
It really was a fascinating show, which makes it too bad that you misinterpreted it so. I was amused when they went into the tribe in the jungle and showed them the pictures. One said of the “hourglass” woman, “She looks like she could have many babies–six, maybe even eight!”
Amen Nick! One of the magical things about the internet is the mystery. Posting your picture is pure food for the ego.
The day everyone links cameras to their computers and we all communicate through video feed is the day I unplug my computer.
I mean, if I want to know what the person I’m communicating with looks like, I’ll have AN ACTUAL conversation Face-to-Face away from the damn computer.