Additionally, if you’d like to provide any data on illegal immigration that is more recent than 1996, please post it. Your constant assertions of “it’s an INVASION!” don’t cut it. Heck, I’d like to see a cite where you derived the 9 million illegal immigrants number from.
Illegal aliens are breaking the law merely by their presence in
the country. They are subject to deportation. They cannot, by law, settle in and make this country their home. Therefore, they are not immigrants. They are aliens.
Also, samclem, those figures are from 1996. You can see that the National number for illegals more than doubled between 1996, and the 2000 census. If the national numbers more than doubled, how much more of a jump should an immigration destination state like California be? Also, those numbers don’t take into consideration the children of illegal aliens, who are automaticly born Americans.
Also, I’m going to look up how many people illegally come into the country each year. I had heard figures from 300,000 to 600,000, although a lot of them come back and forth many times.
Spoofe, go to the fairus.org website, go to research, check out the national statistics. There’s your 9 million( or just short of it)
And a lot of that information was gleaned from the 2000 census. Just think of how many more illegals didn’t fill out their forms.
Also, not all “visitors” are wanted, as anyone should know. My analogy still stands.
White Lightning, I hardly consider the Washington Post to be a reputable newsource. Also, can you find anything in the Fairus site which you feel is untrue?
Wow! You’re even denser than I thought!
I’ll type this very slowly, so you can follow what I’m saying: the term “immigrant” has no bearing on the legal status of the person it is describing. If a person comes here illegally, with the intent of living here, he is an immigrant. If he gets caught and deported back home, he is no longer an immigrant, because he is no longer in a country not of his birth. However, just because someone might get deported does not mean that they are not immigrants. It means they are illegal immigrants.
But wait! It gets even better! The word that you are insisting we use instead of immigrant also doesn’t mean what you think it means. Observe the following, from the kind people at Dictionary.com:
I’ve highlighted the bits that are relevant to our discussion. Note that, again, the term “alien” bears no legal connotation. Yes, someone coming to live in this country illegally is an “alien,” but so is someone who plans to live in this country legally, but doesn’t plan to change nationalities.
So, let’s recap:
Immigrant: a person who comes to a country to take up residence.
Illegal immigrant: a person who illegally comes to a country to take up residence.
Alien: a person who owes alliegance to a nation different from the one he is living in.
Illegal alien: a person who owes alliegance to a nation different from the one he is illegally living in.
Got it yet? I’ll be here all day, if it’s still not clear.
Judge of my dismay when I return to my humble abode after a perfectly enjoyable sunny day on the golf course to be met with such an onslaught of absolute gibberish so full of uninformed idiocy from young master Barking Spider, that once again I have to take out my dictionary of scathing rebuke and reprimand.
BS; why did you put white in quotes? Is that your idea of subtly pointing out that you doubt the existence of such peoples, or am I granting you too much intelligence for such subtle and demagogic, however arrogant, bigoted, racist and just simply unfounded rhetoric?
I also noted while browsing over this little pit thread once more that you have disavowed being a bigot (you’re wrong, BTBTP). OTOH you have never claimed to not be a racist. So how is it going to be? Are you going to show us your true colors, or continue to hide behind a cloak of moronic reason, biased opinion and contentious argumentation?
Quite frankly I wouldn’t bother with you if it wasn’t for the fact that everything that you say flies in the face of the fundamental essence of what I am i.e. a multicultural immigrant of mixed ethnic decent or if you like a perfectly standard edition of the species Homo Sapiens Sapiens.
Goddamn it BS, we’re all immigrants in some way, and the legality of settling in any land is a shifting sand dune that is so far beyond your horizon of understanding that I would recommend reading some serious books on the topic instead of hanging around here. Start with Winston Churchill’s “A History of The English Speaking Peoples” in four volumes. Come back when you’ve read it and tell me which, if any person of Anglo Saxon culture can claim to be the pure descendant of a legal alien.
Since I presume that you won’t read it, I’ll tell you: none. Immigration, and especially immigration against the will of the ingrained, stagnated, lethargic reactionaries of the world has been a fact for as long as civilization has existed. Your own goddamn friggin’ forefathers immigrated to a land that by some standards would be said to have belonged to somebody else at the time. It is a pity that they did not fall victim to some stray Sioux arrow before they had time to carelessly proliferate their moronic genes.
America is a land of tolerance and multiculturalism, even if often accused of being otherwise, especially by some of your brethren of The Bigot’s International Union on this side of the world, whom I regretfully share citizenship with. The US is a land built and run by immigrants. It is a nation that holds at its heart one of the most revolutionary ideas in civilized history, namely the equality of all peoples and the equal rights that entails. That your great nation should strive to be that way in all ways was one of the Founding Father’s most world altering and ingenious goals. The road they set out upon has been hard to walk at times and often enough there has been setbacks, and once in a while the wrong road has been followed for a while. Redressing such mistakes inside and outside the nation while fighting in the face of adversity hundreds of thousands of men and women have suffered and died to uphold these values. Soldiers have bled over them on the field at Antietam, in the trenches on the Marne, on the beaches of Normandy and Iwo-Jima and recently in the streets of Mogadishu. Individuals like Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King and JFK have stood up for them knowing they might be shot dead for carrying on and still after two of them were, millions and millions of tolerant, hard working, ideally minded Americans carry on this legacy.
That some of the countrymen of these great people can be such bigot, reactionary, crap-heads as to want to destroy all this hard earned valor and humanity mystifies me. You, dear Barking Spider are a disgrace to all fantastic things your nation stands for and you belittle all the great, altruistic deeds America has ever done for the world.
Go ahead and emigrate, ‘cause America doesn’t need you! And if you thought the US belonged to you… you’re wrong. The United States of America belongs to the ideals, principles and beliefs so strongly stated in the Declaration of Independence… and the first one of those is the equality and equal rights of all people.
Sparc
BS said
But they were just using the figures supplied by the INS. Oh, wait, I forgot, they aren’t reputable either.
So you continue to use biased figures from fairus.com . an organization which is biased in the extreme. After all, their only purpose is to stop immigration. Not illegal immigration, but immigration. IMHO.
This link http://www.splcenter.org/cgi-bin/goframe.pl?refname=/intelligenceproject/ip-4q2.html is from the Souther Poverty Law Center(yeah, I know, they’re biased too). They excoriate the fairus organization.
They supply such gems as
Way to go Dan.
I think I’ll go with the INS figures.
Sparculees for fucking President!!
I don’t give a shit what country you’re from.
And you should work this …
Somewhere in your campaign speech.
Bravo!
Sparculees, can I have your children?
The figure did NOT more than double. Your cite mentions the illegal alien population being at 8,705,421 in 2002, while my cite mentions it at being around 5,400,000 in 1996. That’s an increase of 3,300,000 in the course of six years… higher than the projected growth rate, yes, but a far cry from “more than doubling”.
Unknown. But you can’t just guess, chuckles. Get some cites.
Are you claiming that they shouldn’t be considered Americans?
Been there, done that. From the way you worded your post, you made it seem like there were 9 million illegal immigrants in California, not the entire country. Thank you for clearing it up.
I’ll guess… oh… two. Your guess is as good as mine.
Beside the point. The definition of the word “visitor” has a clear qualifier about whether or not that person’s presence is allowed, while the word “immigrant” does not.
Further, I note that you are again attempting to cloud the issue with such a red herring, as your initial usage of the “visitor” analogy was as one in which you were referring to visitors whose presence was desireable.
Why must you continue your attempts to confuse the issue? Could it be because you know you’ve been caught in a wrongness?
[quote]
Posted by SPOOFE:
**When you say “European”, who thinks of, say, Belarus?
**
Actually I think of theDuchy of Grand Fenwick.
…please continue the roasting…
Well, to be fair, a lot of people here do tend to do that…I do.
When I last visited Mexico, I noticed this man was the Senate candidate of Chihuahua. His name was on bumper stickers and signs everywhere.
http://www.senado.gob.mx/senadores/Jones_Jones/jones_jones.htm
I thought for a minute, the guy from Ferris Beuller’s Day Off was campaigning for something down there. Apparently he’s from the local Mormon community. You see, when they were sort of unwelcome in the States, quite a few Anglo-American Mormons hopped the border (with papers?) and made themselves at home in Chihuahua…as well as many Low German (Niedersachsen)Mennonites …who likewise steal many ham curing and cheesemaking jobs from honest Mexicans.
http://www.chi.itesm.mx/chihuahua/historia/menonita.html
<<Venden productos de buena calidad como jamón, tocino, salchichas, mantequilla, galletas y sus famosísimos quesos.
Sparculees: Re: “white” in quotes. I do it too 
. Since I don’t consider strictly delineated races to exist in any meaningful biological sense, I tend to quote the term as an expression of its rather amorphous and variable nature ( which we can see right now in GD, where a certain poster doesn’t seem to buy Arabs, for example, as being “white” ).
But I agree with the rest of your post .
- Tamerlane
Bark, Mexicans ‘invading’ California is like the Iriquois invading New York. They live there, or used to live there, well before there was a USA, and for some time afterwards.
Tamerlane and cuate, thank you… although I was already aware of both of your’s correct usage. But a sword cuts two ways so I’m still wondering what Barking Spider understands by his quotation marks. Being rather suspicious of him when swimming these waters I fear something more sinister than marking out the dubious validity of racial epithet. 
BTW Tamerlane; Arabs aren’t “white”, they’re “blue”… I know it for a fact! That’s why they call some of them “the Tuareg”! 
Sparc
Well, I see there was a healthy development while I as stuck in a BA coffin.
Now then, a few words:
Cowardice? Please, that is an accusation so absurd as to almost rise to the level of amusing. Almost. Given BS’s ‘performance’ to date do you really think there is any concern on my part that he would, well, muster something more than his usual sniveling little pseudo-question ‘responses’?
Bloody naïve.
Now, then as to the substance, well as an admired colleague of sorts in the bio field once noted, (paraphrasing) ‘at some point there are enough data points that an intelligent observer has to begin drawing conclusions.’ I don’t think to discern BS’ drooling bigotry, which he rather unsuccessfully attempts to mask, one has to have to have it drawn out and diagrammed for you. I rather think that for readers of an ordinary level of reading comprehension and something approaching an open mind with some semblance of critical thinking will find ample evidence of his putrid bigotry in the small collection of ‘bons mots’ which our drooling putrid little self-regarding idiot has graced us with.
Leaving aside his vaguely, almost entertaining squirming in attempting to turn aside the word bigot, what is there to respond to? The clear pattern of his comments? The obvious signs of where he derives his information from? For those not so distressingly naïve, perhaps you would care to look for those key phrases which turn up in his mewling spewing on any subject in regards to – well how to phrase this – presumably ‘colored’ immigrants and his so very solicitous concern for the White Race & White Middle Class – nicely capitalized in a manner so rather tellingly reminiscent of certain – my what was his own phrase, ‘white racial sites’? Something like that.
Patterns. It is what I am trained to look for and get paid to do. Life is not obvious, nor any aspect of it.
Or I might draw attention to – even after having been informed (and I rather hold that this information was not actually new to our stinking piece of unclever bigoted vermin) of Le Pen’s bigotry – he scuttles rabidly over to the ‘question’ (assertion) that it was a good sign that so many were for an ‘alternate’ viewpoint. Yes, I suppose he might have said the same thing in 1933. No doubt the concept of a political leader (Le Pen) willing to entertain the disenfranchisement of those disturbingly un-White immigrants warms his fetid, revolting little cockles.
Not that his last page of drooling idiocy should not be evidence enough of his poorly disguised bigotry. Note for example the “ ‘White’ Mexican ” and justify that on any basis other than bigotry. Should it come of any surprise that BS in all his bullshitting refers us to a “reliable source” whose founder is worried about ‘white power’?
By the way, the Taureq (Taureg, Tamahaq, etc.) are speakers of a Berber language, they’re not Arabophones.
In truth, Sparculees, the only reason I put White in parenthesis is because I noticed Cuate described himself that way. I have always capitalized the word when describing White people, or Black people, or Asian people. A search of my past posts will verify this.
Also, I would dispute your argument that “we’re all immigrants in some way”. I’m not an immigrant. Most people who have ever been Americans have been born in America. Therefore, they are not immigrants.
Uhh, and that would be me?
Because I understand some of what you just said…
I haven’t seen logic this elementary since my neighbor burned down her apartment by placing the glass jar of spaghetti sauce directly on the eye of the stove.