Are you serious? Posada’s all around stats are consistently weaker than I-Rod’s (and they’re the same age). He won’t be able to hang around long enough to step out of the shadow of I-Rod and Piazza.
He’s a definite no for me.
However, I do agree with you on Frank Thomas. Why the most dominant player of the 90s always gets shafted in these discussions boggles my mind.
Thomas was also listed back in Post #3 and no one objected.
Is storyteller the first poster to mention John Smoltz? 'Cause he’s going in (eventually).
Second-most dominant player at best, and there’s really no room for debate on that one. I agree with the general sentiment, though.
Nope, pricciar listed him in… you guessed it… Post # 3
So he was. Since this has moved slightly to players that retired at the beginning of the year, how about a player that hasn’t been mentioned, Craig Biggio.
Best second basemen of his era in my opinion and a mortal lock for the Hall.
Griffey and Thomas were definitely neck and neck there for a while, and I think Thomas’ later difficulties are the only thing that make Griffey the consensus choice for most people.
“Hello, in addition to being the best hitter of 90’s, I won eight gold gloves and was the best defensive corner outfield of my generation.”
ETA: Seriously, though, you could make a case for Thomas as a better hitter than Bonds in the '90s (it’s very close either way), but the fact that Bonds was a defensive superstar while Thomas was playing 1B or DHing makes it no contest as to who was the better player in that time.
Meh on Bonds. You can make a case he was the most dominant of the 2000s, but in the 90s he was just a great player living in the shadow of Griffey and Thomas (and to a lesser extent, Jeff Bagwell).
Websites usually get upset with direct links to their images, so they don’t always work. If you go to this page you will be able to see the shot.
http://homerderby.com/archives/1667
I know this is off topic. But, I really can’t see Sosa not getting in if McGwire does.
As for Thome, I would surprised if he didn’t make it eventually. He will probably end up with over 500 home runs, 200 hits, and 1500 RBIs. He’s been a pretty consistently good power hitter. I know he isn’t flashy and most people say he belongs in the hall of “very good” But, I find it hard to overlook these numbers. Longevity has to count for something. Although, I do see his DHing and lack of defensive ability as a drawback.
I really haven’t been convinced that Schilling belongs in the Hall, yet. Although, I might be biased - as a Philly fan I loved the guy but, the way he acted after his near no hitter really turned me off of him for good. In any case. Are his stats really good enough to make him as much of a lock as Pedro or Randy Johnson?
pat
Jeff Bagwell??? Longer post coming.
I agree their fates are probably tied, but McGwire was a better player.
A Tale of Five Catchers:
Player A
AVG: .262
OBP: .335
SLG: .439
OPS+: 115
Player B
AVG: .278
OBP: .380
SLG: .479
OPS+: 124
Player C
AVG: .302
OBP: .339
SLG: .477
OPS+: 111
Player D
AVG: .308
OBP: .377
SLG: .545
OPS+: 142
Player E
AVG: .267
OBP: .342
SLG: .476
OPS+: 126
In this group, Player D is clearly an outlier, very obviously the best hitter of the five, and not by a small margin. Of the remaining four, how would you rank them, without looking up their identities?
Well first I would ask for a more complete statistical picture, as those four stats don’t tell the whole story. But I’ll play along…
C-B-E-A
And a little quick Googling tells me C is Ivan Rodriguez and B is Jorge Posada. That still doesn’t change the fact that the gap between Rodriguez and Posada is huge.
What gap? Posada’s career on base percentage is not just higher, it’s way higher. They have the same slugging percentage. Rodriguez has 70 more home runs in four more seasons, such that they’ve both averaged approximately 17 home runs per season for their careers. Pudge has averaged 70 RBI per season; Posada has averaged 66. OPS+, which measures hitting performance relative to one’s league and adjusts for one’s ballpark, favors Posada by a fairly wide margin. I can’t find a single measure, other than batting average which is way less useful than OBP or OPS, which favors Rodriguez at all.
Actually, you’re right, the gap is huge; as a hitter Posada is significantly better.
Players A and E, by the way, are Gary Carter and Johnny Bench, respectively.
Player D is Mike Piazza, but you probably guessed that.
Two more numbers for you
Games started at catcher:
Posada 1280
Pudge 2063
OK. I don’t know exactly what this is meant to prove, other than that Rodriguez has been injured somewhat less and played four years longer. No one is saying that Posada is a better player all around then Rodriguez; the latter’s clear defensive superiority and longevity advantage make that obviously not so. I am arguing that Posada has to date been, as a hitter, at least as good as and probably better than Rodriguez, and that if you’re going to call Rodriguez a mortal lock then you have to at minimum look at Posada.
Thus the “gap” I was talking about. Posada is a good catcher, but Rodriguez is a Hall of Fame catcher.
EDIT: Also, Posada is already slowing down and his numbers will pale next to Rodriguez’s when they’re both done.
Four more numbers. . .
Gold Gloves: I-Rod 13, Posada 0
Wins Above Replacement Level: I-Rod 128.6, Posada 80.6
Edit: That said, Posada will have an interesting case if he plays well over the next few years.
OK. I don’t think we have a good basis for discussion, because our criteria regarding what makes a Hall of Famer is obviously wildly different.
Gold Gloves are stupid and meaningless. WARP is not, but it of course incorporates defensive ability, too, which is irrelevant to my argument that Posada has been at least as good as and probably better as a hitter than Rodriguez.
I’m not arguing that Posada is a better player, lifetime, than Ivan Rodriguez.
I’m arguing that he’s a better hitter lifetime, than Ivan Rodriguez, who is a mortal lock for the Hall of Fame. And because he’s a better hitter at the same position, and a better hitter at that position than many of the men who have played the position historically, and because his career is obviously not over and some of those counting stats may be a lot different when it is, he deserves some consideration for the Hall of Fame.
Except, he’s only a better hitter when you limit it to statistics that you deem important. Basically, any catcher that plays in this era will be overshadowed by Piazza and Rodriguez. Because there’s those two guys and there’s everyone else.
OTOH, Posada will likely get in because of the Yankee bias that exists among HoF voters.