Beautiful women, wealthy men and "the rules of the game"

[astro]

@elbows

I’m very curious for a definition of, ‘world class women’, what the devil is that supposed to mean?

Yes, money and power attract attention from men and women both. And there are many women out there looking to get ahead via whom they hook up with. Ain’t nothing new in that. And there is no problem when such women hook up with such men.

The problem arises when such men begin to think ALL women are just as keen to get with them. Even those that are just there to shake hands are snap a selfie or walk away saying, ‘I got to meet Mr X!’ These men get to thinking those women must also be potential conquests, so why not move on them too!

And they very likely get away with pushing the envelop. Because you’re all starry eyed to be meeting a celebrity, and off guard that you’re about to get groped! And he’s gonna cop a feel and then just move along, leaving the victim in stunned silence!

But let’s not make any mistakes, it IS sexual assault, by definition. Just as ‘pushing the envelop’, by saying inappropriate things to waitresses and bartenders is, in fact, sexual harassment.

There would seem to be a lot of men out their thinking, “Hey I know lots of people who behave this way. They’ve never been called out at the bar or faced any pushback, so it must be okey dokey.”

This is the 21st century, it’s not okay. It’s not about being over sensitive, or having a thin skin or no sense of humour. It’s about sexual harassment and sexual assault. Attempts to diminish, dismiss or equivocate it away as insignificant are misguided and reflect REALLY badly on the men who do so.

You reveal yourselves as the dinosaurs you are. You ARE the problem, in fact. And while you maybe can’t see it, we can see it in you very clearly, because you insist on clarifying why exactly, sexual assault/harassment isn’t really, this or that. When, in fact, it’s exactly that by definition!

There’s kinda-sorta generalizing to all guys assertion in your post that I don’t think is necessarily accurate re -

There would seem to be a lot of men out their thinking, “Hey I know lots of people who behave this way. They’ve never been called out at the bar or faced any pushback, so it must be okey dokey.”

While it’s quite possible there are some super drunk, drugged out private party scenes where non-consent full out grabbing goes on regularly I don’t think “lots of” non-athlete, non-star, non-gazillionaire men behave this way in normal retail bar scenes as far as making non-consent physical assaults on women. It can certainly happen, but if it does the grabber is usually screamed at, then roughly tossed out by the bouncer and banned from re-entering and the police may be called if the woman wants to prosecute. It’s very rare (in my experience) that someone is not going to get called out for unwelcome grabbing.

It’s the same thing where some people are trying to excuse Trump’s assault comments by calling it “locker room talk” and most men are going “WTF?.. Locker room talk is bragging how much action you can get because women want you or about how you will go about seducing them with your incredible game, not about how you’re going to grab and assault them non-consensually.”

Even a lot of conservative men are recoiling from Trump after that statement. It’s not what normal guys do or think is acceptable behavior.

[AK84]

@Broomstick

How about women have have sued/are suing him for sexuall assault?

That a different transaction. I would not be surprised if Trump was liable/guilty of sexual assault.

What do you think of Mr Clinton’s liaisons with Lewinsky? How consensual was it really? The massive power differential between the two (the President of the US and an unpaid intern half his age), makes it questionable how consensual the encounters could have been or how freely consent was given. Certainly, the office managers were worried enough about it to transfer her when they found.

FTR, I don’t think Clinton was a rapist there; however, what are your views when such a power differential exists,

[QUOTE=you with the face]
Consent should not be assumed simply because someone doesn’t put up a fight. That’s the point
[/QUOTE]

Nor should lack of it be presumed either:dubious:

[elbows]

Except Monica admitted she was the pursuer, during an interview.

[Acsenray]

So allegations that Trump actually grabbed women by the pussy without consent is not relevant to whether Trump literally meant that he grabs women by the pussy without consent when he said he grabs women by the pussy without consent. Is that right?

[Dangerosa]

@msmith537

I don’t think I’m that far off. Maybe I’m not presenting the profile of these individuals very well.

Whether it’s the high school quarterback supported by his jock friends, the “afluenza” kid, , some spoiled rich frat guy, the managing partner at a high powered law firm or investment bank, or Donald Trump himself, it’s the same mentality. The flip side of a lifetime of pressure to “win”, “be the best”, “be popular”, “kick ass”, “get rich” so on and so forth is that everyone else is shit. They develop a sense of entitlement that they deserve to reap the benefits of their position. They are also in constant fear of losing their status, maybe even having to put themselves at the mercy of all the people they shit on.

Also, keep in mind rich people don’t have to put up with all the bullshit other people have to deal with. They don’t have to suck some bosses dick. If something is broken or annoying, they can just have it fixed, replaced or fired. So imagine your outlook towards other people if you always got your way with everything. People become “things” to be used and discarded as necessary.

I read an article by Elon Musk’s first ex wife where she described that as soon as he became rich, everything about her had to be “perfect” all the time. She said she felt like one of her employees (to which his response was if she was his employee, he’d fire her).

I was thinking that what he wanted in a wife was actually more like one of the robot “hosts” from HBO’s Westworld. Turns out I wasn’t too far off.

There are no doubt women who throw themselves at power and wealth. But I think we are making the same point, that there are plenty of men in positions of power and wealth who aren’t used to hearing no or not getting their own way. And when they are frustrated in getting what they want, they often act out, particularly if their been foiled by someone they do not see as worthy (i.e. a wealthy sexists getting turned down by a woman of unequal power - financial or otherwise).

Let’s take the George Clooney example. George walks up to random woman in bar and kisses her - and not the European peck, his tongue is performing a tonsillectomy. Being George Clooney, and her being average good looking woman of no standing, she may be more flattered than offended - and at least she has a good story to tell. He may get slapped - but it might be ok with her. After all, George Clooney

Now instead of random good looking woman, George walks up to Jennifer Lawrence, grabs her, and performs the same tonsillectomy. Now, maybe Ms. Lawrence is “wow, I just got frenched by George Clooney!” Or maybe she is disgusted that a guy old enough to be her father has just been ridiculously inappropriate to her. But because the power is more equal, the inappropriateness of the action is more obvious.

[Broomstick]

@AK84

What do you think of Mr Clinton’s liaisons with Lewinsky? How consensual was it really? The massive power differential between the two (the President of the US and an unpaid intern half his age), makes it questionable how consensual the encounters could have been or how freely consent was given.

I think it’s the same problem when any boss has sexual contact with a lower-level employee - at the very least a *potential *for abuse exists and it’s best to steer clear of such relationships, or for one of the parties to relocate so as to not be in direct chain of command.

@elbows

Except Monica admitted she was the pursuer, during an interview.

^ And this - Monica has, for years, been pretty clear that she was not coerced and a fully consenting participant. In this particular case there seems to have been no abuse of power but the elder party should have exercised the self control to say “no” and, oh yes, not cheat on his spouse.

@Dangerosa

Let’s take the George Clooney example. George walks up to random woman in bar and kisses her - and not the European peck, his tongue is performing a tonsillectomy. Being George Clooney, and her being average good looking woman of no standing, she may be more flattered than offended - and at least she has a good story to tell. He may get slapped - but it might be ok with her. After all, George Clooney

WTF? If George Clooney came up to me in a bar and used his tongue to swab my tonsils he’d get a shitload more than just a slap - I do not consent to be touched in that manner outside of my spouse and such conduct, regardless of who is doing it, how famous that person is, or how much money that person has, is a form of assault. I don’t excuse misconduct based on wealth, fame, or power.

[AK84]

Well, you have had women who have protected their assaulters (I have had some unfortunate experiences dealing with such) so its not like its decisive. I am very suspicious of power differentials in sex liasons.

And yes , WTF Dangerosa. Are you saying that for women its the type of man not the action that is the decisive question.Are you saying that creepy=hitting on a woman while being ordinary looking.

[Corry_El]

@Acsenray

So allegations that Trump actually grabbed women by the pussy without consent is not relevant to whether Trump literally meant that he grabs women by the pussy without consent when he said he grabs women by the pussy without consent. Is that right?

I’d say it’s the other way around. Evidence that Trump actually did grab women by the pussy is pretty much all that’s relevant to saying he committed sexual assault. Parsing his words* in a crude and stupid conversation to say “You bragged that you have sexually assaulted women. Do you understand that?” is political editorializing.

*which to answer the point above is how I would characterized turning the statement into ‘I don’t even wait [to] grab them by the pussy’, when that’s making a judgement call as to how ‘they let you do it’ fits in besides the separation in phrases about ‘kissing’ and ‘grabbing’. In a polarized society now lacking consensus about a lot of basic things , I think part to trying to bridge gaps is not to be so insistent what’s a ‘fact’ that other reasonable people do not accept as one. I don’t believe I’m unreasonable and do not accept that an unsolicited kiss on the mouth is necessarily a ‘sexual assault’. Grabbing private parts against a person’s will definitely would be, however I don’t assume ‘they let you’ necessarily means ‘because they were intimidated into accepting an assault at that moment’ as opposed to ‘they consent’. Opinions can differ, my problem is with ‘no, you’re wrong, I get to construct the one scenario the words represent and if you don’t agree maybe you should come under suspicion as a predator!’

[Larry_Borgia]

@Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup

Staggeringly, I have some insight into this. And a lot of what people are saying above is accurate, but let me see if I can put it all together.

Source of my knowledge? I live in Los Angeles (Beverly Hills, to be precise), and I went through the typical period that everyone does upon moving here of dating a bunch of models/actresses. I have some friends who still do that for a living.

Modeling, for 99% of models, makes you no money at all. Moreover, the battering ram that it does to your self-esteem is significant. As one ex put it- she was the most beautiful thing ever to come out of her hometown, with all the privilege and nice treatment that goes with that- no one had ever been mean to her, in large part because she was so pretty (she was quite self-aware, actually- I kinda miss her). Then she got here, got signed (huge in and of itself), and went to a call… where there were 50 other girls that looked exactly like her. Advantage- Hollywood.

So you’ve got no money, few skills other than being pretty, and the world is going out of its way to demonstrate to you just how little “pretty” means- what do you do? You go to clubs, you go to parties, and you do what you can to meet someone successful, powerful, generous, etc. And, while you don’t throw yourself at them, you make yourself very available. There are clubs that exist, and parties that are thrown, if not specifically, then implicitly for this purpose. The poster who said that consent is presupposed, at least at these events, is correct.

That said, there’s a game to it. Because the poster that said that those who can do it don’t have to brag about it is equally correct. The men who date like this are not showing off their alpha-ness in a caveman sort of way- they’re showing off in an entirely different way- by demonstrating to their peers and to those of us who look at/up to them how debonair and suave they can be.

The standard of power is not whether you can grab pussy with impunity, it’s how you display what you’ve got.

The absolute best example I can give is not Clooney but Jeter. I’ve been to a few parties he attended, both here and in NY. Women get a running start to throw themselves at Jeter. He’s dated singers, models, and “regular girls” by the dozens. And no one has ever said a bad word about Jeter. Why? Because Jeter lets the pussy come to him. Why? Because he knows that it will. Not just because he’s a Yankee, but because he treats whoever he’s with, with dignity and respect and grace, for the period of time that he’s with them, limited though that may be. Now, it’s not going to last, and everyone knows that. But even when you know that, there’s no reason to be an asshole about it. Jeter doesn’t need to tell anyone that he’s Jeter. You already know, and you already know what that means.

Trump needs to tell people he’s Trump, and what he can do, because he’s desperately afraid that it doesn’t mean anything. He has the money and the power, but not the foundation to make that matter. Trump needs to grab the pussy because he’s desperately afraid that otherwise he won’t get to touch it.

Jeter is a dollar. Trump is a Somali shilling. And that’s why Trump needs to grab, and that’s why Trump needs to brag.

In the immortal words of the American philosophical collective, the Geto Boys, “real gangsta-ass **** don’t flex nuts, 'cause real gangsta-ass **** know they got 'em.”

This is an excellent post. It pretty much matches my limited experience. I’ve never moved in the world of movie stars or athletes, but I’ve known guys who were really really successful with women, and for the most part they didn’t act like assholes or brag about it. They’d go to parties to have fun and frequently go home with someone. If you talked to them about it they’d make a self deprecating joke or change the subject. They’d treat everyone with respect and would certainly never just walk up to someone and start kissing her right away. That would be incredibly gross.

[JcWoman]

@Broomstick

WTF? If George Clooney came up to me in a bar and used his tongue to swab my tonsils he’d get a shitload more than just a slap - I do not consent to be touched in that manner outside of my spouse and such conduct, regardless of who is doing it, how famous that person is, or how much money that person has, is a form of assault. I don’t excuse misconduct based on wealth, fame, or power.

Or good looks, which is I think what a lot of people think. I don’t care if you’re the most gorgeous man in the world, if you stick your tongue down my throat uninvited, you’re just as big a creeper as an ugly guy doing the same thing.

[Velocity]

As I understand it, **Dangerosa **is simply stating a fact - that that’s how the dynamic sometimes works (average ordinary woman might not mind George Clooney French-kissing her, but a powerful woman would object,) and is not *defending *that behavior.

But that feeds directly into what some MRAs like to claim - “the difference between flirting and sexual harassment is whether the woman finds the man hot/attractive or not.” And also how people criticize the fact that creepers like Edward Cullen in Twilight, or a multitude of creepy/stalking/abusive behavior in Fifty Shades of Grey or chick flicks, are perceived as romantic, because it’s a handsome or rich or dreamy guy. More than one person has pointed out that if it were a fat, ugly, average Joe exhibiting the same behavior, the women would be calling the cops.

By saying, in essence, “It’s not the behavior that matters, it’s the person,” this is *enabling *Trump abusers and the like.

[Larry_Borgia]

@Velocity

As I understand it, **Dangerosa **is simply stating a fact - that that’s how the dynamic sometimes works (average ordinary woman might not mind George Clooney French-kissing her, but a powerful woman would object,) and is not *defending *that behavior.

But that feeds directly into what some MRAs like to claim - “the difference between flirting and sexual harassment is whether the woman finds the man hot/attractive or not.” And also how people criticize the fact that creepers like Edward Cullen in Twilight, or a multitude of creepy/stalking/abusive behavior in Fifty Shades of Grey or chick flicks, are perceived as romantic, because it’s a handsome or rich or dreamy guy. More than one person has pointed out that if it were a fat, ugly, average Joe exhibiting the same behavior, the women would be calling the cops.

Except it isn’t a fact. Read Happy Scrappy Hero Pup’s post above. Guys like Clooney don’t go around randomly assaulting women.

[AK84]

@Velocity

As I understand it, **Dangerosa **is simply stating a fact - that that’s how the dynamic sometimes works (average ordinary woman might not mind George Clooney French-kissing her, but a powerful woman would object,) and is not *defending *that behavior.

But that feeds directly into what some MRAs like to claim - “the difference between flirting and sexual harassment is whether the woman finds the man hot/attractive or not.” And also how people criticize the fact that creepers like Edward Cullen in Twilight, or a multitude of creepy/stalking/abusive behavior in Fifty Shades of Grey or chick flicks, are perceived as romantic, because it’s a handsome or rich or dreamy guy. More than one person has pointed out that if it were a fat, ugly, average Joe exhibiting the same behavior, the women would be calling the cops.

By saying, in essence, “It’s not the behavior that matters, it’s the person,” this is *enabling *Trump abusers and the like.

Is’nt that one of the criticisms of the 10 hours in New York cat calling video? That they showed mostly Blacks and Hispanics; when white Men did the exact same thing the dis not show it because they did not perceive it as threatening?

Although I think its the Red Pill on Reddit types who go for that argument as opposed to MRA’s.

[Velocity]

@Larry_Borgia

Except it isn’t a fact. Read Happy Scrappy Hero Pup’s post above. Guys like Clooney don’t go around randomly assaulting women.

By “fact,” I don’t mean that Clooney guys go around assaulting women at random. What I meant was Dangerosa’s point - that some women will tolerate inappropriate behavior from a celebrity that they wouldn’t tolerate from an average guy.
And it’s a very problematic attitude. The attitude by these women that “[inappropriate behavior] is OK if the man is famous/rich/powerful/Edward Cullen/chick-flick protagonist” is precisely what enables Trump-type abusers.

[Acsenray]

@Corry_El

I’d say it’s the other way around. Evidence that Trump actually did grab women by the pussy is pretty much all that’s relevant to saying he committed sexual assault. Parsing his words* in a crude and stupid conversation to say “You bragged that you have sexually assaulted women. Do you understand that?” is political editorializing.

*which to answer the point above is how I would characterized turning the statement into ‘I don’t even wait [to] grab them by the pussy’, when that’s making a judgement call as to how ‘they let you do it’ fits in besides the separation in phrases about ‘kissing’ and ‘grabbing’. In a polarized society now lacking consensus about a lot of basic things , I think part to trying to bridge gaps is not to be so insistent what’s a ‘fact’ that other reasonable people do not accept as one. I don’t believe I’m unreasonable and do not accept that an unsolicited kiss on the mouth is necessarily a ‘sexual assault’. Grabbing private parts against a person’s will definitely would be, however I don’t assume ‘they let you’ necessarily means ‘because they were intimidated into accepting an assault at that moment’ as opposed to ‘they consent’. Opinions can differ, my problem is with ‘no, you’re wrong, I get to construct the one scenario the words represent and if you don’t agree maybe you should come under suspicion as a predator!’

This isn’t logical. You can argue that his comments are ambiguous—meaning that they are amenable to alternative interpretations. The actual evidence of his behavior is evidence that one of those possible interpretations is likely to be true, that is, he was actually boasting that he grabs women by the pussy without consent.

[Larry_Borgia]

@Velocity

By “fact,” I don’t mean that Clooney guys go around assaulting women at random. What I meant was Dangerosa’s point - that some women will tolerate inappropriate behavior from a celebrity that they wouldn’t tolerate from an average guy.
And it’s a very problematic attitude. The attitude by these women that “[inappropriate behavior] is OK if the man is famous/rich/powerful/Edward Cullen/chick-flick protagonist” is precisely what enables Trump-type abusers.

But men will behave the same way. Your average guy will put up with a lot more drama from someone who looks like Jennifer Lawrence than from someone who is massively overweight with bad skin and a mustache.

Also Edward Cullen–even putting the supernatural parts aside–is a fictional character. What people fantasize about and what they want in real life are very different. I might like Batman and Daredevil, but I know that in real life vigilante justice is a disaster.

[msmith537]

@Dangerosa

There are no doubt women who throw themselves at power and wealth. But I think we are making the same point, that there are plenty of men in positions of power and wealth who aren’t used to hearing no or not getting their own way. And when they are frustrated in getting what they want, they often act out, particularly if their been foiled by someone they do not see as worthy (i.e. a wealthy sexists getting turned down by a woman of unequal power - financial or otherwise).

I think there are a lot of men of every socioeconomic group who think they can just get their own way. Rich men just have an easier time of getting away with it sometimes. Sometimes not, as their wealth and high profile might make them a target in a way being an anonymous blue collar guy wouldn’t.

[Velocity]

@Larry_Borgia

But men will behave the same way. Your average guy will put up with a lot more drama from someone who looks like Jennifer Lawrence than from someone who is massively overweight with bad skin and a mustache.

True. It shouldn’t be that way either.

[astro]

@Velocity

By “fact,” I don’t mean that Clooney guys go around assaulting women at random. What I meant was Dangerosa’s point - that some women will tolerate inappropriate behavior from a celebrity that they wouldn’t tolerate from an average guy.
And it’s a very problematic attitude. The attitude by these women that “[inappropriate behavior] is OK if the man is famous/rich/powerful/Edward Cullen/chick-flick protagonist” is precisely what enables Trump-type abusers.

There are scenarios in a lot of relationships where a woman might, if she’s in the mood, enjoy or get a thrill out of being “taken” aggressively, but as a man you had better have some kind of baseline and a history with that person before going there or what is “hot” in one situation can be rapey in the next.

[Larry_Borgia]

@Velocity

True. It shouldn’t be that way either.

Eh, it’s just human nature. Believe me I’m on the short end of the stick looks and charm wise, but I’ve gotten along OK.