Best starship?

In My Humble Opinion
41

Weirddave speaks the truth.

Isn’t it obvious that there is nothing in the Star Wars universe even remotely comparable to holodecks, replicaters, Data’s positronic brain, transporters, and the sensors and computers of the Federation universe? If we have those clear cut superiorities, can’t we assume that other areas are superior as well?

That linked to the Star Wars over Star Trek site was a real hoot. Do you think that guy has ever seen any episodes of Star Trek? Of course, having a degree in mechanical engineering gives you unmatched mastery in understanding future technology and tactics.

Let’s look at just one issue: phasers versus turbolasers. In spite of some folks assertions that turbolasers aren’t really lasers, they are super powerful magic zappin’ beams, I think we can conclude that they are lasers, OK, really big, turbo powerered lasers (whatever that means. It was mentioned in a Trek episode that lasers will not even penetrate the navigation shields of a Galaxy class ship. I guess that for the TURBO lasers, they would have to switch on the main shields. Phasers fire a phased particle beam that interface directly with the target’s atomic structure, breaking down atomic cohesion and resulting in total anihalation down to the atomic level on anything above medium levels. Does that sound more powerful than a laser? We see that handheld phasers tuned at anything above the halfway mark will vaporize a human target. A standard hand phaser on maximum setting will destroy a medium sized building with a single shot. The rifles are more powerful, and the new style rifles are more powerful still. The Star Wars blasters blow little holes in people on the very rare occasions that they hit. When Luke’s aunt and uncle were killed (presumably in a firing squad type barrage) they were burnt to skeletans, but were not vaporized. If we can conclude that the handheld phasers are much more powerful than Star Wars blasters, it seems like a safe bet that bigger weapons have a similar power difference.

Yeah, the Star Destroyers have more turbolasers, but then again, a B-17 had more guns than an F-18.

How about those Death Star level planet buster weapons? It was established that Kirk era starship could destroy entire cities with a single barrage when the evil Enterprise threatened to do so. We saw the far more powerful Enterprise D do serious cutting on a planet crust with the phasers at a medium level, and accidently trigger a reaction which almost destroyed the planet’s core. What would it be like it opened up full power? The Enterprise E is even more powerful. We have already seen in the first Next Generation movie that technology exists which can make stars go nova. We also have seen that both Federation and Klingon technology can destroy the biosphere of a planet, if you want to be more precise. And just imagine what it would be like if the Federation actually built a ship designed to destroy planets.

And please, no more of this Star Wars fighters overwhelming the Enterprise business. There are good reasons why Star Trek does not have fighters (the ships they have which are designated fighters are not single pilot snub fighters, but more like very big shuttles). Star Trek technology shields are so powerful that no ship can damage them that does not have weapons powered directly from a capital ship warp core. Star Trek tech weapons are so powerful that no ship can withstand them that does not have shield powered directly from the same level warp core. And Star Trek targeting systems are so advanced that speed, manuverability and smallness are not going to foil the sensors. Remember, TNG era ships do not have a single phaser, as is often reported. They have a phaser array (actually several in the case of the bigger ships) that can fire a single powerful burst at a large target or multiple bursts at multiple small targets.

All of this information comes from onscreen information or the technical manuals, which are sanctioned by the writers as an official base line. So it’s not fair to bring in these “such and such novels have Star Wars transporters” arguments, in case anyone is thinking of it.

I don’t remember much of Battlestar Gallacta but I would guess it’s tech is better than Star Wars (better robots) and worse than Star Trek.

42

Silvio, I let Spoofe deal with that, but one thing:

Uhm, I don’t think you met IG-88. Research him, you might be impressed.

One more thing:

Those novels are recognized as official Star Wars sources, if you haven’t noticed. If we didn’t use those, we would only have what was presented in the movies and whatever Lucas says is so. Maybe we should direct you to the Imperial Star Destroyer vs. Enterprise thread that Spoofe started? (He’ll provide the link, I’m sure of it). A lot of useful info was presented there. I’d be impressed if somehow you had access to info others didn’t.

43

One more thing…

Turbolasers aren’t overcharged lasers. They’re more like supercharged plasma, which is why they have an explosive effect.

Hand held weapons don’t need to do any more than kill someone, which is why most Star Wars sidearms aren’t that powerful.

A Star Destroyer could destroy entire cities with a single barrage as well. It takes a whole lot more to destroy a planet than it takes to destroy a city.

Now, Monster is taking this waaaaayy too seriously, so I’m off.

44

Weirddave…

Thanks. Remind me to make fun of your family in the Pit sometime.

And for the last time, show me one time in any of the movies or shows where the Enterprise (or ANY Federation ship) has engaged a slower-than-light target at faster-than-light speeds. You can’t, because it’s never happened, even against other targets that couldn’t achieve FTL speeds, and especially when it would have been very beneficial to the Enterprise to do so.

In addition, even if it COULD perform this so-called “Warp Strafing” move, they’d have to take out their target in the first shot (you know, the element of surprise?). Otherwise, the ISD commander would just shrug and say “Let’s go to hyperspace.”

Dave, Trek transporters get disrupted by almost ANYTHING. Heck, mild thunderstorms disrupt them. Mild, non-lethal radiation disrupts them. What is so implausible about the notion that an energy shield, which is designed to keep out foreign sources of energy, would also disrupt transporters, as well?

How many Death Stars did the Federation make? How often do they routinely create artificial intelligences? Why does it take them a century to traverse their galaxy?

Face it, Dave, shinier doesn’t equal better.

Silvio…

That’s blatantly false. They DO have holodecks (however, such frivolities are scarce on a warship), they DO have replicators (heck, the Falcon has one… it’s called a “synthesizer”. The difference is, it doesn’t make stuff appear in a shimmer of sparkly light), they’ve got AI’s that are much BETTER than Data’s positronic brain (they routinely create them… C-3PO, 4-LOM, IG-88… etc.), transporter technology DOES exist (an obscure technology, and unreliable, so it ain’t used much except one mentioning of a carnival sideshow act using teleportation rings as part of the act), and the sensors and computers are far BETTER than the Federation. Holonet, anyone? Instantaneous communication from anywhere in the galaxy?

Obviously you didn’t READ the site, because he makes references to almost all episodes from TNG and many from DS9. Heck, he even has written a summary from every single episode from all seven seasons of TNG! Maybe you should try READING something before you scoff at it, little one…

Lasers travel at the speed of light. Turbolasers DON’T travel at the speed of light. Ergo, they’re not lasers. (I’ll get more complex, but in light of the oh-so-in-depth analysis you provided, my three sentences look like a friggin’ college thesis).

Cite a single Star Trek episode where this has been done. No, not SAID… DONE. After all, if we went by what was said in the films, then the Death Star was the ultimate weapon in the universe… and you can’t argue with that, can you?

Uh… they knock people down. Same thing as phasers do.

But we can’t conclude that, since it’s simply not so. Perhaps you can first start with providing a cite of a phaser’s power?

Yes, it can disintegrate people… blasters cannot. Why? They’re different weapons, genius!

And then you think you can compare hand-scale weapons to capital-ship-scale weapons? You didn’t even read the site I cited, did you? Sheesh, you practically hand something to someone on a silver platter, and STILL they don’t get it…

There’s a difference 'tween scorching the surface of a planet and blowing it to pieces with the force we saw in Star Wars. Blowing apart the biosphere of a planet? Please provide a cite indicating that that technology is mounted on the Enterprise.

Why not? Are you suggesting that just because something is small it’s not very powerful?

These good reasons are… what, now?

That’s blatantly false. A teeny-tiny shuttlecraft has been a nuisance to Fed capital ships. I cringe every time I think about the times a shuttle has disabled Voyager…

In addition, you’re ignoring the concept of “missiles”…

You’ve never watched Voyager have you? That thing misses half the damn time. Their aiming is HORRIBLE, even at ships that are hundreds of meters long.

Why? The novels are official sources (except for the movie novelisations, which are considered canon). Otherwise, we go entirely by what we see in the three movies… a scant six hours of information (compared to the hundreds of hours of Trek episodes). So it’s no fair disregarding information just because it contradicts what you want to believe.

So you don’t know much about it, yet you feel it’s safe to make conclusions about it? What planet are you from?

45

On a DS9 episode a combined Cardassian fleet of about 30 capital ships went to destroy the Dominion home world. The objective was to completely destroy the whole planet. The episode implied this would take hours to accomplish but it could be done. Now in Star Wars we are told the Death Star has the fire power of about half of the entire Imperial Fleet, so if 30 Trek Capital ships are about the equivalent of the Death Star’s firepower, obviously then 30 Treks ships have the fire power of half the Imperial Star Fleet. All you would need to defeat the Imperial Navy would be 60 or so Federation capital ships.

Despite what the books and tech manuals say I think we should only go by what is seen and said on the screen as to the capabilities of the vessels.

46

SPOOFE is right you weenies. I’ll take a ISD over the Enterprise any day.

But let’s face it. If you really want a powerful starship…

You gotta go with Gay Deceiver from Robert Heinleins, Number of the Beast.

One small (4 seater) hypersonic plane could defeat ANY single ISD or federation vessel since this ship is:

  1. Equipped with the ability to travel in atmosphere or vacuum.

  2. Uses a Burroughs space distorter that allows them to not only jump from any point to any other point in the universe but also to other universes at will.

  3. Hi Opal! All the best!

  4. Uses a Libby model engine to travel through time at will

  5. Has a fully aware computer to assist the pilot in emergency situations that occur faster than human reflexes can cope with. (and that’s something neither the Empire nor the Federation have)

  6. Has a direct link to the Land of Oz for crying out loud! This includes endless fresh air, food, water, sundries and two enormously luxurious bathrooms complete with large tubs and shaving gear.

Sure the armament is light (one, low-strength laser cannon and personal firearms and swords) but they have two major advantages: first, they can just wink out of the universe, grab a damn ASTEROID and send it into their opponent and watch the show (it’s discussed in NotB that they had plans to move planets so don’t give me any grief) and, secondly, they could also call a universal time-out, head for Oz, and consult the Wizard or Professor Wogglebug (or GLINDA HERSELF for advice on how to defeat their opponent (though it’s my impression that Glinda would advise them to avoid it if they could).

So, if I have to choose betwixt the original choices my moneys on the ISD (they don’t have those damn weak starboard power couplings that were always going out on the Enterprise).

But remember, the Gay Deceiver could destroy them all if they decided to.

It ain’t the size of the thing…it’s what you can do with it that matters.

47

The Superlaser on the Death Star is not what is being referred to in the comparison of the firepower of the fleet. What was referred to were the thousands of turbolaser batteries and ion cannon batteries that are mounted on the surface of the Death Star to combat capital ships that try to engage it.

**

Even though I saw most of the DS9 episodes, I must have missed this one. How come it has never been referred to in previous discussions?

BTW, implying it could be done doesn’t mean it can be done.

Why? Because there’s more information out there in ST episodes than there are in SW movies? Not to mention that ST is hardly consistent in it’s technology episode through episode.

48

BTW, when are trekkies going to challenge the threat of ion cannons to their ships? It has been brought up many times, but it has always been ignored. Ion cannons penetrate shields and disable electronics, engines, life support, computers…hell, pretty much everything. Remember in ESB, when the Star Destroyer is knocked out by 3 hits of an ion cannon? Now, even though it was a Planet Defender ion cannon and is much more powerful than ship-based ion cannons, I’d still reckon that they would be able to do a lot to a Trek ship.

49

I’d take an Imperial Star Destroyer, preferably a Mk II, for purely aesthetic reasons all my own. If my pockets are deep enough, I’d take a Super Star Destroyer.

50

I am going to go with a Borg Cube. Ion-Cannon, Turbolaser, phaser, they could adapt to anything you threw at them. Then they would just assimilate your entire crew. I bet a Borg Cube could even destroy the Death Star.

Spoof, you have made claims that Hyperdrive is faster than warp (which I don’t doubt, you are the master when it comes to these things) but what about Transwarp?? Is hyperdrive faster than TransWarp?

I bet a borg cube is faster, more powerful, and more ass-kicking than any of your other puny vessels. Sure one was destroyed in First Contact, but it took an entire Federation Fleet shooting at one specific location, and if Picard (previously a borg himself) had not known the exact place to shoot, the cube would have prevailed.

51

Gay Deciever would be my second choice.
But for sheer versatility, potential size and comfort, I’ll have to go with the Tardis.

52

Question: Did they refer to the COMPLETE destruction of the planet itself, or just the surface?

In Star Wars, the fragging of a planet’s surface is called “Base Delta Zero”… it involves many barrages (a single ISD is capable of accomplishing this) and literally melts the surface, making it completely uninhabitable for a long, long time.

The reason I question whether or not they were referencing “destruction of the whole planet” as opposed to “just the surface” is because the latter is a feat which has never been referenced to in ANY Star Trek episode (except for the war 'tween the Borg and Species 8472 in Voyager, but that wasn’t the Federation doing it). Wiping the surface clean is a capability that, while impressive in and of itself, we KNOW is a capability that Trek ships have.

I haven’t a clue. The reason I feel safe in concluding that Warp travel is slower than Hyperspace comes mainly from Voyager… in Season 1, it was said that a journey of 70,000 lightyears would take 75 years. In SW, however, it’s possible for even a low-end vessel to make the 120,000 lightyear trip (the size of the SW galaxy) in a matter of months.

(Note: When discussing Warp travel, I’m ignoring Warp 10, and ignoring any theoretical speeds which are POSSIBLE, but not currently attainable by ST ships. The highest so far seems to be the Enterprise-E, which has a maximum velocity of 9.99 or so).

Transwarp, however… there’s just a lot less information about it. One Voyager episode depicted the crew getting their hands on a Transwarp coil from a Borg cube, and they used this to further their journey by 10,000 lightyears or so. However, it’s not stated how long they were RUNNING at Transwarp (it burned out after about 10,000 lightyears). Days, perhaps, at the very least… which would put it a little ahead of Hyperspace travel. Lowest-end estimate would be a matter of weeks, since the Voyager crew has been shown to be reluctant to travel continuously in warp for extended periods of time.

(Note: I may be off about the 10,000 lightyear figure… I only vaguely remember the episode. However, my local TV station is showing Voyager re-runs late at night, so I’ll wait until that episode comes up and check)

In either case, Transwarp still relies on similar technology as Standard-warp… creating a field around the ship, needing constant energy flow to stay in Transwarp, etc. Hyperspace just needs a big kick to get in and a big kick to get out… once in Hyperspace, only miniscule amounts of resources are necessary for travel.

Potential problems with my example of Transwarp above: This was Voyager, and they cobbled together a Transwarp drive from a stolen Transwarp coil. I’m sure they weren’t as capable with the technology as the Borg would be. It’s obvious that the Borg would be capable of fine-tuning the Transwarp drives to get better performance out of them… which, most likely, would make Transwarp travel faster than your average Hyperspace trip.

To get back to original question, though, I have another ship to throw into the mix… Spaceball I, from Spaceballs. The damn thing can transform into a gigantic maid… how cool is that?

53

…jeeez, all the so-called experts here on the boards and nobody mentions the Jupiter II

…not to mention Fireball XL5, although, I gotta admit, how tough can a ship piloted by a crew of puppets be?

54

Jupiter II’s a weak little ship. Not even capable of a controlled FTL jump.

55

Let’s not forget the Lying Bastard and the Long Shot from Niven’s Known Space. They were dangerous and uncomfortable as hell, but they were damn fast when running the Quantum II hyperdrive. The Long Shot (the prototype Beowulf Schaeffer took to the galactic core) could cross Known Space (a 60 light year span) in 75 minutes–that’s 48 ly/hour. You could go from Sirius to Procyon in 5 minutes, not counting takeoff and landing. That would have gotten the Voyager home in just over 2 months (65.1 T-standard days). Of course, the Long Shot could only carry the pilot and a couple of months worth of supplies, had to be steered manually, and had no throttle…

The Lying Bastard was bigger, just as fast, and surely had the coolest of all starship names.

56

SPOOFE

The DS9 episode in question was the two parter Improbable Cuase/The Die Is Cast. In order to strike first at the Dominion a combined Romulan/Cardissian fleet of 30 or so ships was sent to destroy the Dominion’s home world. The dialogue indicated the goal was to blow up the whole planet, an officer stated it would take an hour for the fleet to destroy the planet’s crust and several hours to complete the job. It don’t have this episode on tape so I can’t be 100% sure I am remembering it exactly but I believe I have the basics.

The briefing in SW said exactly, “The Death Star is heavily shielded and carries a firepower greater than half the starfleet” I think that is a very definitive statement. A single ISD is only a tiny fraction of the Death Star’s firepower which is about equal to a few dozen Trek cruisers.

Debates like this can be fun but eventually we go in circles trying to go by what is seen on the screen, what is spoken or implied or what the tech manuals say. Our own fan bias comes into question as well. I am not a star wars basher as some have suggested I only suggest from what is actually seen on the screen Trek ships are more powerful than SW vessels.

As a peace offering and slight thread hijack what are your absolute favorite moments in Star Wars EP 4 A New Hope?

One thing about the ISD it has the greatest entrance of any starship in SF history. In pursuit of the Tantive IV the destroyer almost stretches to infinity, great.

When despondent Luke just stands for a moment looking into the twin sunset, John William’s music swells the perfect moment.

The Millennium Falcon leaving the space port and accelerating away from Tatooine.

“I am going to cut across the axis and try to draw their fire” as the X-wings peel off from formation to attack the Death Star. When I first saw SW in 77 this scene brought to audience to their feet I will never forget it.

Oh my, we are TOTAL GEEKS !

57

Star Wars canon sources establish that the fastest hyperspace ships go at about 1.5 million c.
In Star Trek canon sources, to speed of warp is pushing
warp 9.9, approx. 3053 times c.
(Velocityc=Warp factor cubed * Warp factor cube root,
for values of warp factor 1 to 9, inclusive.
Values 9 to 10 the velocity, and energy required to achieve that velocity, increase exponentially to infinity.
Warp 10=infinite velocity)
It is established that Borg transwarp conduits make a ship go at least 20 faster than maximum warp.
7of9 establishes that a slip-stream is similar to a transwarp conduit, so I ASSUME the velocity is similar as well.
The best competing Star Trek phenomena is probably the
Varduaar Underspace Corridor, a natural construct that allows a ship to go…yes…1.5 million c
(I do not include the superwarp trips made by the Traveler or by the Cytherian enhanced Reg Barclay, for they are misunderstood, one-time accidents, which cannot be recreated).

58

In other words, it takes “several hours” to do the job that the Death Star did in a matter of seconds.

Doesn’t seem like that much of a disparity to me, I’m afraid. It’s easier to do a big job in a longer amount of time.

I didn’t doubt that Star Trek ships would be capable of blowing up a planet. You just have to keep pounding on the damn thing. But TIME is the critical factor, not overall energy release. Get a video clip of the destruction of Alderaan… the planet gets blown apart in about a second and it’s mass gets thrown out hundreds of kilometers just a moment later. That’s a shitload of energy there, my friend.

Just Ep. 4? Aw, you’re shittin’ me… the coolest moment in the whole movie has got to be when we first see Boba Fett (disregarding the random insertion of Mr. Fett in A New Hope Special Edition). But in ANH… got to be the TIE Fighter attack on the Falcon. Damn, that was a cool scene… and it hasn’t been replicated in the slightest in any other Sci-fi/Space Opera that I know of.

Not just that… but an ISD has almost exactly the same entrance in the other two movies. The latter three episodes ALL start off with a Star Destroyer.

Hey, maybe that’s why The Phantom Menace sucked! No Star Destroyer!

59

I am going to deviate from the topic for a little bit and say what I think would be the perfect starship.

Just picture this.

An Imperial Interdictor class SD . . .
This ship, besides having all the implaments of the normal SD, the Interdictor has the caapability of pulling all starships around it out of hyperspace. So, any Hyperspace capabilities would be futile.

. . . with an Improbability Generator . . .
This brainchild of Douglass Adams makes it possible to do the nearly impossible, such as teleportation and the like. So, this ship could be able to pull all ships to a halt, AND go wherever it wanted. This is the ultimate defense.

. . . and pilots who use the force.
If the pilots use the force well enough, they can do almost anything with the Improbability Generator and the capabilities of the Interdictor. In “A New Hope,” Luke knew exactly how to fend off the lasers from the remote on board the Millennium Falcon, and he wasn’t even close to the height of his awareness of the force. He could teleport out of the way of any onslaught from the opposition. Also, these pilots could use the force combined with the capabilities of the Interdictor to “slingshot” ships into stars, into each other, or out into space. The Interdictor wouldn’t even need and lasers. It could just use the ship’s built in defenses as an offense.

So, there’s my two cents.

60

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