Bill H, you're not nearly as smart as you think you are

The BBQ Pit
21

Well, I’m kindof bummed this has devolved somewhat into a discussion of proper oral sex technique, which is exactly the sort of thread I avoid. Not that there’s anything wrong in discussing or improving technique, just not my sort of thread to participate in.

Anyway, here’s my position on everything:

It saddens me to see dragongirl in the state she’s in. I hope she makes her life better. It particularly saddens me to see the state her children are in and and the state that they are likely to be in, no matter what choices she makes.

The husband sounds like a jerk; reasonable men don’t call their wives “stupid”, “bitch” or “asshole”. They don’t say their wife has breasts like udders, and they don’t demand sexual favors to justify being married to them.

However…

I also think that dragongirl has made choices in her life that brought her here. I believe it’s possible (I’m not claiming he is; I’m just saying it’s possible) the husband may despite appearances be a reasonably decent father who’s trying very hard to take care of his family and really isn’t getting the help or support he deserves.

I can tell you that if I were working 80+ hours a week trying hard to bring money in, if my wife was telling me I should be spending additional time trying to find a different job, if she had agreed to try and find a job, and wasn’t following through on that despite her having perhaps 7 hours a day free while the kids were in school, if she were controlling the money we were spending to a point where I couldn’t pull $20 from the ATM without telling her, if she was demanding that I wake up early on my one day off to do housework because she refused to reasonably discipline our children (when raising our children is her primarily responsibility in our home), if she was refusing to do reasonable things I wanted sexually, and if even her family told her to stop whining and give me some support… while, I’d be more than a little unhappy about it. Would I react like he did, calling her names and making unreasonable demands? Hell no; I’d talk to her and do my best to effect change and find compromise. But I’d be pretty upset. It shocks me when dragongirl says she has no idea what her husband feels; it seems so obvious that all of the things I’m saying must be on his mind.

As far as the notion that just because someone asks “how do I leave my husband?”, that I’m only allowed to answer the question directly, or only allowed to post if I feel her pain, well, I say nonsense. I’ll post what I see as important or relevant, and in this case, I think it’s very relevant that dragongirl may want to look inside for the source of some of her woes.

When I wrote that post, I saw an OP that sounded incredibly lopsided, followed by a bunch of enablers posting “Abuse!”, “Get Out Now!”, and “Get yourself to a shelter immediately”. And I’m not making up the quotes or the exclamation marks. That kinda pissed me off. I’m truly sorry that dragongirl is having a tough time, and I sincerely wish her the best. But the whole thing just reeked and I thought something needed to be said about it.

Now… EVERYTHING I JUST SAID MAY BE WRONG. Perhaps her husband is a complete jerk, and everything is his fault, and she’s bending over backwards to make things better. And I say again as I did in my post: I hope this is the case. I hope she makes things better.
Now a couple responses because I happen to particularly respect the opinions of these posters (not that I don’t respect everyone of course):

yosemite wrote

I find his demanding them on schedule for the honor of being married to him outrageous.

However… I completely understand his not being happy he wasn’t getting them. And especially when everything else was afoul. I have deep problems with how the husband handled their problems. But that doesn’t change my estimation of the source of the problems in the first place. (and to be clear, I don’t see the lack of oral sex as the source of the problem, rather the icing on the cake).

Athena wrote

Yes, but I only did that anticipating I’d need a friendly voice today. Normally I’m not so nice.

gobear wrote

I disagree. I think dragongirl is a reasonable person who wants things to be better in her life in whatever direction that means. She may not want my advice, but I don’t think hearing a different opinion is bad for you.
Now a couple relevant points about me personally:

My wife is a stay-at-home-mom. We’re very fortunate that we can afford this. I have nothing but respect for SAHM’s, and know how hard they work, how important they are, and how thankless their job often is (and I’m not just saying that because my wife is in the room).

Spouse abuse happens to be an issue that’s important to me. I’ve seen firsthand the physical and emotional damage that can be done, not just to spouses, but indirectly to children as well. And I’ve contributed a fair amount of time and money to this cause. I’m proud to have made a difference in some women’s lives who got a deal they didn’t deserve.

22

I don’t think it’s odd. If a person’s experiences have been, as she said “mostly bad”, then no wonder. And if her recent experiences with it have been under duress “do it or else” where Or else is dire financial and/or marital consequences, well DUH.

As far as the pit subject. IIRC this isn’t the first time Bill H has shown a complete lack of empathy or understanding of the perils being a woman sometimes brings. Nor, again IIRC, is it the first time he’s waded into a “he done me wrong” thread and been skeptical and bordering on blaming the woman for what befell her.

23

I’m completely confused to have seen such a post by gobear, but I’m sure he meant well though. Maybe he meant it in a supportive way. Speaking as just one woman, if I were to ask advice about a subject, even one as personal and well…scary as the one Dragongirl posted, I’d certainly be just as interested in thoughts, support and advice from my male friends, straight AND gay, as my female friends.

24

He’s not bringing in enough money.

He’s a trucker. He could turn down a run if he needed to get to an interview.

dragongirl has posted at length about the obstacles to her getting a job. No transportation; remote area; minimal job training; kids can’t be left alone for too long and no one available to supervise. I also remember her talking about her job at the dollar store, which she had to give up because she couldn’t get anyone to supervise her kids.

Asking him to tell her that he made a withdrawal is not being controlling. Money is tight for them. He can take out $20; he just has to let her know so she doesn’t inadvertently bounce a check.

I don’t remember that specific incident. But I do know that one of her children is, due to the nature of his condition, resistant to “reasonable discipline”. She can’t do everything herself.

He wasn’t asking in a reasonable manner, let alone a loving one.

I don’t know about her whole family. Her father is biased, always taking the husband’s side, any husband’s side. dragongirl is probably repeating a pattern she learned as a child.

Well, good for you.

He won’t communicate. He refuses to communicate. He bailed out on couples counseling.

It wasn’t. Fucking. Relevant. dragongirl feels that it’s time for her to leave. She wanted advice on how to do so. You were out of line casting blame on her.

Why? What’s it to you?

And you said it. And it wasn’t well-received. And I highly doubt that dragongirl is going to take a good hard look at herself and decide to be a “better” wife because of it. Just stop fucking spinning everything in her posts to fit your agenda.

25

Must. resist. temptation. to. say.
Blow me!

26

Unlike you, the rest of us were familiar with the situation. And she has been trying HARD to make it work. She tried to get him to go to counseling, she tried her damndest to be a good wife.

And again, as we stated in the other thread, her husband was all fine and dandy with her being a SAHM until his buddies started nagging him about when he was “gonna make the old lady go to work” and so on.

To sum up, what Rilchiam has said, tripled. You didn’t give her advice, you blamed her.

27

I rest my case.

28

Okay, I’ve read Bill’s posts and I really don’t see any agenda fitting spin going on. It may have been poor form and a bit dickish to post where and when he did, but instead of getting more information he basically got insulted and pitted. Board seems a bit knee-jerky today.

Based on what I’ve read, Bill H seems rather reasonable; not a bit wife beaterly and lacking in any agenda. I think that if time had been taken to craft a reasonable and informative post to his views, this thread could’ve been avoided and the other thread would not be closed now.

Calling that enabling is a step to far. I know that sometimes the board can be somewhat too quick in its support. It’s just not happening here. Apparently dragongirl has a history with her husband that the other posters were aware of and you may not have been. You did seem to be taking a roundabout way of asking for more info and it sounded harsh. Given the title and tone of the OP in the thread, you’re timing for saying something about it was poor.

29

I can’t help but wonder about this particular phrase:

Whose view of reasonable? What is there to determine that it is reasonable to require that dragongirl blow her husband “at least twice a week to “justify” being married to me and to make him feel better for asking him to look for a better job.” (from the now-locked thread). It seems to me that if dragongirl doesn’t like that particular sex act, and the husband knows it, such a request would be quite peculiar at best.

My guess - and let me preface this by borrowing from you, Bill: “EVERYTHING I AM ABOUT TO SAY MAY BE WRONG.” My guess is that dragongirl’s husband knows how she feels about blowjobs and that dragongirl’s husband felt lessened/demeaned/put-upon at the request that, rather than doting on him for working 80-hour weeks (that didn’t pay the bills, and that aspect of things is possibly not something he wanted to think about at all), she asked him to look for something that would make more money in less time.

I can understand that sort of perspective. Don’t shout at me yet:slight_smile: I said understand, not “side with” or anything like that. If communication in a relationship is already strained (and this facet of things is something that, from what has been presented, is not the fault of dragongirl), something like “I think you should try to find a job that pays better,” however well-put, could cause a reaction whereupon the husband decides that if he’s going to feel less “like a man” (and again, note that I am not justifying this hypothetical reaction, just recognizing it), his wife should suffer similarly. Thus the bit about the blowjobs.

So my guess is that dragongirl’s husband knew how she’d feel when given the request. Given what we know about how much he cares about hurting her with his words, it seems at least plausible.

That having been said, my guess - and this is admittedly based on conjecture - is that Bill’s reaction’s is based on having been witness to at least one scenario wherein the situation as one party described it was significantly different from how it appeared once things from the other side appeared. I’d further bet that Bill feels the man in that situation was unjustly piled-on and that he is reacting, here, out of the fact that we have heard nothing from any other point of view on dragongirl’s situation. And, to again borrow from Bill, EVERYTHING I JUST SAID MAY BE WRONG.

30

Yeah, sounds pretty reasonable to me. Also, a woman is entitled to not like to participate in a particular sex act, to just not like doing it. She doesn’t have to justify her reasons to anyone else if she doesn’t want to.

The thing that Bill H said in the previous thread that bothered me was this:

So? So? So “most” women aren’t dragongirl. So what does the fact that “most” women supposedly wouldn’t have a problem with performing a bj have to do with anything? dragongirl doesn’t enjoy this particular sex act, has never enjoyed it, and her husband obviously knew this when he married her. She states in her OP that her dislike for blow jobs is “not new.”

Bill H says in this thread (in response to my comments):

Sure, but he was apparently never really getting them that much, and knew from the very start that the woman he married didn’t enjoy them. Bringing up the fact that “many” women don’t have a “problem” giving them is irrelevant, unless you’re trying to make the case that since “many” women don’t have a problem giving them, then there’s something wrong with dragongirl for not wanting to give them. And I don’t think that’s anyone else’s call to make. It’s her sex life, her preference, and I doubt she’s the first person in history who does not derive enjoyment from a particular sex act, even though “many” others do.

31

Ironically, the oral sex thing is really a tiny part of my issue, which is why I said things like

In fact, I’m happy to drop all my references to it in all previous statements.

However, yosemite, I am curious. You seem to be saying that if one partner doesn’t want to do something sexually and the other does, then that’s the end of it, that there should be no attempt to find common ground or compromise. True? And you didn’t say it, but I’m presuming that the female is the one who gets the say, yes?

So, a couple of hypotheticals for you: If person A is married to person B, and person A doesn’t want to have sex at all, but person B does, is person A under any sort of moral obligation to have sex occasionally? or is sex for this couple completely out of the question? I’m not asking if person B has the right to rape person A, obviously that’s wrong. But does person A have no moral obligation to bend a bit (so to speak) for their partner?

Hypothetical #2: In another couple, A and B, and B doesn’t want to mow the lawn, does person B have any moral obligation to mow it occasionally, or is it just a given that this must fall on person A (or some other work-around must be found)? I.e. is this right to do what you want strictly a sexual right, or is any usage of a person’s body covered?

Hypothetical #3: B doesn’t feel like working. Does it therefore fall on A to support the family? or by virtuel of morality, should B bend?

I guess the real question I’m asking here is: if something is important to one person in a couple and the opposite is important to the other, is it the moral thing to do to try to meet in the middle?

My stance is that they should try to find common ground. I hope you agree.

I didn’t see any evidence that dragongirl looked for common ground in this area. And I’m talking about the 13 years before this stupid “blow me because I’m working” thing.

And the reason I mentioned that most women are fine with this practice wasn’t to imply that dragongirl is abnormal, which she certainly isn’t. My reason was to point out that this wasn’t a case of her husband wanting to molest her with potatoes in a public shopping mall, but rather something that’s rather pedestrian sexually.

32

I didn’t say that. I said that a person is entitled to not want to do something, and I don’t think it’s our place (us, strangers) to tell her that something’s “wrong” with her for not wanting to do it. Which, I might add, some here have come pretty close to suggesting.

I also think that compromise is fine and that’s between the couple in question. But if someone is really icked/grossed-out by something, and they state that going in to a relationship (as dragongirl did), and the other partner doesn’t seem to mind doing without, then the issue has been addressed, I should think. But now, apparently, he’s “changed his mind.” Does she have to now “compromise” and perform an act that really is unpleasant to her, just because he’s changed his mind? No, I don’t think so. It’s up to her, though. Between her and him.

It depends on the thing. It is between the two people involved.

Some things aren’t negotiable with a person. We all have things that we feel are “deal breakers.” All of us. You try to find that out those things before you marry a person. If a compromise can’t be met, best not to marry. In dragongirl’s case, it appears that the issue had been addressed and her husband claimed that he didn’t mind that she didn’t enjoy giving blow jobs. He rarely ever got them. Ever. This was “not new.”

True enough, but it’s still something that she doesn’t enjoy doing. And her husband well knows that. The fact that many others enjoy it won’t change that one bit.

33

Not a valid example, plus you missed my point. Couplehood is couplehood, so my insights would as valid, or invalid, as anyone else’s. But I wouldn’t post in a parenting thread because I’m not a parent, and I wouldn’t post in a thread about menstrual problems. Being a “let me solve this for you” guy isn’t, IMO, what’s needed in that thread. Dragongirl was asking for moral support, not lectures.

34

Agreed that she was looking for support, which is why I suggested that if Bill H. offered his criticism in a different thread, it might be better received.

But since this IS a different thread (maybe still not the right different thread–is this one all about kicking Bill’s ass around the block?), there is a lot (cocksucking aside) that is worthy of discussion. So let’s discuss. Do you folks think it possible that a woman could be miserable in a marriage, and desperate, and destitute, and worthy of your sympathy, yet claims of abuse, and advice to seek a woman’s shelter, still be inappropriate? Or is “Abuse!” and “Get thee to a shelter!!” your standard response to that situation?

That is Bill H.'s contribution to the subject, as I see it. I wonder if he posed such questions to the woman’s shelter he contributed to as to their policy in marginally-abusive (or clearly unabusive) situations, what kind of response he would get.

35

Well, I’m sure I don’t have a one-size-fits-all response to these situations, but I was the one that provided a link to a place that lists shelters. My reasoning was this: he is emotionally abusive, and she’s trapped. He wants her to have a job, but he doesn’t want to help with the things that would become more difficult for her to do (house, kids) if she did have one. He’s cut her off from her money, her vehicle, and her friends, and he says things that are cruel and demeaning. If she had access to those things (money, vehicle, friends), I wouldn’t necessarily advocate a shelter, but those places are for women with no place else to go.

I’m also curious about a few things. If he drives a truck for a living, does she not have any other vehicle at her disposal while he’s away? What if the kids are sick and need a doctor visit.

Also, I’ve never been abused, so I’m curious if this is the case. Some people seem to have the idea that phyisical abuse is worse than emotional or verbal abuse. But what I wonder is, is the actual physical abuse (the hitting) worse than the emotional aspect of it? I mean, if I were taking a martial arts class with my husband, I wouldn’t feel abused if he smacked me to the ground during a practice session. That’s not abuse, because he’s not trying to make me the victim. But if he felt that he could slap me for disagreeing with him, it’s not the pain that would make me feel abused; it’s the fact that he thought he had a right to do so.

36

It wasn’t your thread and therefore perhaps you are not the best one to give this opinion.

So I gotta ask the women: Is this how you feel? When I popped in to say that I was bad at giving advise, but I wanted to offer support, did women feel like I didn’t belong there because I have a penis?

37

Bill H, you mentioned in the other thread that:

And a little bit later:

I would like for you to understand that emotional abuse can actually be worse than physical abuse. Imagine this - a person comes to work on Monday, bruised and battered, and says their spouse beat them up that weekend. Sympathy all around, everyone understands what happened and who was the victim. Now, imagine that a person comes to work on Monday and says that their spouse yelled at them, called them names, wouldn’t let them sleep, took their bank cards away, and humiliated them in front of company that weekend. Everyone sort of looks away uncomfortably and gets back to what they were doing. Or more realistically, the spouse that was abused all weekend doesn’t say anything.

Which is worse abuse? Getting hit, or getting treated like dirt under someone else’s feet in a systematic, de-humanizing way day after day until you don’t think you deserve any better treatment? I don’t want to take away from how bad it is to batter someone else, but I think you need to understand how serious emotional abuse is.

38

Hey gobear, go fuck yourself. And take your John Grey, Men are from Mars Women are from Venus generalizations and shove them up your ass.

Oh and

Hijacking this thread to brag about your sex skills is pretty crass.

39

Right back atcha, sweetheart.

[/quote]

If you weren’t a total retard, you would realize that my comments had to do with the OP’s distaste for a normal sex act and my astonishment that an act that is pleasurable for both parties is viewed as “dirty” and a chore. I hijacked nothing; I posted a comment that you disliked. I weep at your displeasure. :rolleyes:

40

This woman certainly didn’t feel that way at all.

First, I want to say that I didn’t start this to be a total, all-out flaming pile on of Bill H.. But I think he’s been acting like an ass, and I want to call him on it.

Bill H.-one instance of her husband calling her a name isn’t necessarily abuse. Nor is one instance maybe of demanding a blow job. But when you put all of these together, it is. Emotional and/or verbal abuse is more subtle than out and out physical abuse, but it can be just as, if not more, damaging to its victim.
When I read dragongirl’s threads about her home life, I see someone who has been conditioned to believe herself completely worthless. Her children are starting to take their cues from Dad, and treat her with disrespect. That’s alarming-will her son grow up to respect women and treat his wife decently? Not if this continues. She states that her son is very hard to discipline. Is it possible that this stems from the situation he’s living in? Add a disabled child to the mix, and it’s not a very stable home life for anyone.
Doing searches for dragongirl seems to bring up a LOT of threads about blowjobs. Apparently, this is an issue for her. The way her husband treats her probably has a lot to do with it.