My advice is the same that it’s been since the first time I read about dragongirl’s woes. She needs to get a job. Like it or not, money is power in a relationship and SAHMs put themselves at a tremendous disadvantage should EITHER party want to leave the marriage. For those couples who support each other, and who are lucky enough to have sufficient income with one salary, having a SAHM is a blessing. For others who don’t support the concept, or who are having financial troubles, it simply may not be an option.
I think that dragongirl is immobilized by her sense of powerlessness and lack of self confidence. As a former SAHM, I completely sympathize. I graduated with honors and have a bachelor’s degree, but I felt like companies would be doing me a favor by hiring me. After staying at home with the kids for 4 years, I lost all my confidence. I DREADED the thought of applying for jobs and interviewing. But I did it because our family needed me to get a job. And, what do you know, not only did I live through the interview, but I got hired. And I have to admit that we’re all happier for it. Not only did it relieve some of the pressure my husband was feeling by being the sole breadwinner, but it empowered me. My husband is making really good money now, our marriage is solid, and I no longer need to work. But I won’t give up my job because I don’t want to lose the sense of independence and power that you can only get by being able to support yourself should the need arise.
I really do believe that not only would getting a job help her family out (including or excluding the husband) but it would do wonders for Dragongirl’s rock bottom self esteem.
My advice: beg, borrow or steal to get her car fixed. If the only thing keeping her from getting a job is $150, then that needs to be her priority.
You take a risk that it might never improve. If it’s that huge of a deal to you that you might end up nagging them to “change” if they won’t/can’t change, then perhaps you best not marry them. “Marry in haste, repent at leisure”—is that the saying?
But if keeping things neat and orderly was “repulsive” to you and made it “hard for you to look at yourself in the mirror” in the morning, or was otherwise a serious “deal breaker,” would you still feel obliged to try to do it anyway?
Keeping things neat/orderly isn’t quite on the same lines as performing a sex act that grosses you out and makes you feel ashamed of yourself. Keeping things neat and orderly is something that while you may have trouble doing because of bad habits, you have no real emotional objection to doing. That’s not dragongirl’s situation.
There are things that all people feel that they shouldn’t compromise on, or are unwilling to compromise on. We** all** have “deal breakers” in our lives. For some people it might be flying in a plane—if they’ve got enough of a hangup about that. For others it might be eating meat—if they’re grossed out by it or have a serious moral objection to it. Is it fair or wise to marry someone who you know seriously hates flying, only to feel ill-used because they won’t “compromise” and fly on a plane? Is it reasonable to marry someone who you know definitely never wants to eat meat, only to be disappointed because they won’t eat “just a little” meat? No, it’s not necessarily reasonable to do that. If compromise can be met that’s great, and there’s no harm in asking, but it is not reasonable to expect that a compromise must occur on all things. It’s also stupid since with some things it was probably never going to happen, and perhaps never was destined to happen. Not everything about a person is up for negotiation, nor should it be.
Exactly. How could someone really enjoy engaging in a sex act with someone who was cringing and wincing all the way through it? Why would they insist on getting this sex act, knowing that’s how it was going to be?
This is no defense, just pointing out that dragongirl’s husband is not so unique in this attitude- for every woman out there that thinks that sex is just something to be endured as part of marriage (and unfortunately, I know quite a few of these), there is a guy that agrees.
Also, I want to clarify- I don’t think that anyone, least of all **dragongirl ** ‘deserves it.’ But, like **kung fu lola ** eloquently stated, she’s the only one that can make it better. He won’t change, and she can’t count on anyone else ‘saving her.’
And, lastly, i do have a hard time figuring out emotional abuse because it’s so much harder to quantify. I know that it exists, but without a lot of info (from both sides) I can’t be sure this specific case is ‘abuse’ or ‘chronic assholery on the part of her husband’ or ‘dragongirl being a whiner.’ Whatever the case, she’s not happy, nothing will change in the current situation, so she needs to go. I hope that she follows through, and I wish her well.
That said, I find it strange that we’re willing to give dragongirl the benefit of the doubt when it comes to her own (private) reasons for not wanting to give blow jobs yet we’re all willing to pile on her husband without any information from him. I agree with Bill H. in that there’s more to this story and piling on the blame solely on the husband seems rather wrong. (Yes, I understand there’s no practical way to get his side of the tale but we should at least consider his side in a better light).
What difference does it make if there’s more to the story, or what that “more” is? dragongirl made her decision. What matters is where she goes from here, not what happened in the past.
I’m guessing though, that had her husband come to her, put his arms around her and said, “Sweetie, I know it bothers you, and I don’t understand this. Is there a reason, specifically it makes you feel that way?” If he had asked like THAT, or perhaps if he wasn’t always so damned insensitive, she wouldn’t feel that way.
Remember-in the past, she was told she’s not allowed to tell him what SHE likes sexually, because it makes him “feel bad.” And that HE knows better than SHE does about what she likes.
dragongirl, if you read the thread, was looking for neither moral support nor lectures. She was looking for advice. At least that’s what I understood from the thread title.
And regarding couplehood being universal, I assume this gives me, a married hetero, as much validity to give advice to gays as you? Personally, my ego isn’t that large. I’m sure there are facets in a gay relationship that I don’t face with my wife. But since my wife and I are a couple, and it’s all the same anyway, I should feel free to give advice to gays on how to leave a partner.
I got a different vibe, that she was looking more for encouragemtn to do what she alrewady knew she had to do, but I could be wrong. Wouldn’t be the first time.
Why couldn’t you? I don’t see that there would be any difference emotionally, and the technical details would be simpler.
I can appreciate what you’re saying and I understand the point you’re making, but I just can’t help but feel there are aspects to a gay relationship that aren’t understood by hetero couples. And vice versa. Ignorant? Maybe so, but I’m basing that on what I know.
In any case, it’s kind of a moot point anyway. Plenty of men make up at least half of all couples, so by default I can’t see how a man’s opinion or thoughts wouldn’t be valid. While I can see where Bill H was coming from, I think it would have gone over better if he had used a shitload more tact in saying it.
I don’t really have much more to contribute to this thread (hell, I don’t think I contributed anything to it) so I’ll bow out now. Just wanted to try to clarify what I said in the first post.
And if person A decides that Person B needs to “change their mind” about something that was already AGREED upon as non-negotiable, then that could be, as dragongirl stated "the straw that broke the camel’s back.
I think you’re really, REALLY glossing over the blowjob part and the significance of how it took place. The manner in which the husband DEMANDED it as his just due, to “justify him staying married to her” is the issue, not the blowjob itself. That, added to the constant verbal and emotional abuse of her is ridiculous.
You seem to be just seeing the one statement from him, and not realizing the incredible soul killing and eroding effect years of being put down and told you’re no good truly IS. It can change a person so drastically from what they actually are, to someone completely beaten down and lifeless.
And please note I siad a person, not a woman, I know men who’ve had this happen to them as well. Emotional/verbal/psychological abuse is JUST as real, and just as “hie thee to a shelter” worthy as physical abuse is.
Women aren’t the only ones who are emotionally/psychologically and verbally abused.
I don’t think that those who are placing the blame on the people in these situtaitons really understand the slow, insidious, well planned out takeover of the victims life that this type of abuser engages in.
So no, it’s not as if, unless a person has been educated that they’d have beforehand warnings until very far into the relationship and already trapped. This is a sneaking, slow work of art by these abusers.
It’s not as if they have a sign tatooed on their foreheads warning of their real intentions. They start off perfectly normal and nice, and the verbal and emotional part starts out after the abuser is sure he or she 'has" the other one.
And as I’ve said, it’s a very slow process, at first, the things said and done are things that you really can’t quite put your finger on AS being insulting or abusive, and only after months and years does it work it’s way up to the constant erosion of a person’s spirit and identity.
Did the person have a hand at getting themselves into that situation in the first place? No one is saying they didn’t. But that doesn’t preclude their rights, once they figure it out, to have the appropriate help, NOR to be recognized as being abused.
And that seems to be the difference in how Bill H. responds to these situations, more in a way that blames the victim and denies him or her any recourse since “it’s all their fault, or partly their fault anyway”.
Pointing out a person’s own responsibility in a situation like this is beyond stating the obvious. It’s pointlessly cruel. By this time, they KNOW they got themselves into it. So what good does it do to reiterate to them what they already know? None, that’s what.
Incidentally, the person who I know who was/is the most severely damaged after having been in this type of relationship is a man. So this is not a men= big, bad meanies/women = helpless princesses thing.
I really wonder.
If you would even bother to read what I wrote, you’d see that multiple times I’ve described the husbands demanding of blowjobs as outrageous and unacceptable.
If you would even bother to read what I wrote, you’d see that I said that the oral sex thing is really a tiny part of my point, and that I happily revoke including it in past posts.
Before you post again complaining about what I write, I ask you to read what I’ve written. If you know how.
After reading it several times initially, I was (and am) convinced she was referring to me, since yosemite as well has been clear that the husband was out of line.
That, coupled with CanvasShoes earlier cite-less accusation that I have a history of demonstrating a “complete lack of empathy or understanding of the perils being a woman” led me to believe that it must be pointed at me.
CanvasShoes, if you have an ounce of decency, you’ll either come up with some cites, where I berate women as you claim, or retract your accusation.
For your benefit, I did a search of posts I made with the key words “husband” and “wife”, and here are the relevant results:
The dragongirl incidents.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=280554: Here a male had been with his girlfriend for ten years and was engaged to her. Another female announced her love for him two weeks before their wedding. I advised him to either cancel or delay the wedding right away, or to marry his girlfriend and be faithful. In either case, I emphasized how important it was to take the girlfriend’s feelings into account.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=257531: A male had a disagreement with his wife when his stepson (her son) locked the wifes keys in his room. I advised him (among other things) that he should take a bigger role in raising his stepson.
The only confrontation I can think of with a female which could possibly be relevant was in a thread vanilla had posted where I described her as leeching off those around her. I can’t find the thread, but I stand by what I said in it. And male or female, I would’ve said the same.
So which is it, CanvasShoes? Cites of a history of berating women or retraction?
First of all, I specifically said IIRC and if you’re the poster that I think I remember, I did NOT say Bill H. HAS done a, b, c. I believe I remember a similar lack of tactfulness in other threads regarding someones life circumstance.
Bully for you that you give great advice regarding computers and graphics etc. Based on the most recent post to dragongirl, you should stick to computers etc.
Second, yes, you were correct, I did NOT think that you gave the appropriate weight to the incident of the blow job. Yeah, you gave some lip service to how that particular act of his was outrageous, but based upon your other posts here, and in the original thread you don’t appear to really understand how invasive the husband’s whole attitude is, as demonstrated by his callousness regarding the blowjob incident.
You say “yeah, that’s outrageous, blah blah” and then you basically go on to continue to blame and berate her for not “taking control” etc. When really, in saying “okay, I’m ready to leave, now how to I do that”, she has NOW taken responsibility and action. She just doesn’t know the next steps to take.
If you have not been in that situation, that of being isolated and trapped, not to mention having been beaten down for years, you have no idea what you’re talking about.
But Guin is correct, beyond that, No, it’s not all about you.
Just in the dragongirl incidents alone, I say history of berating women. Your post to her was a marked lack of tactful “assistance”. Cruel and leaning toward blaming her, and with a skeptical tone, as if really, if she were to be “honest” her husband is the victim.
I see that in the other threads you listed, you give the link, but no quotes from your actual posts in those threads. So, after going through the threads looking for your posts, I answer to each.
[/quote]
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=280554: Here a male had been with his girlfriend for ten years and was engaged to her. Another female announced her love for him two weeks before their wedding. I advised him to either cancel or delay the wedding right away, or to marry his girlfriend and be faithful. In either case, I emphasized how important it was to take the girlfriend’s feelings into account.
[/quote]
This thread appears to have been written by a man, and you’re responding to HIS concerns. Which is unlike what I said IIRC, I thought you generally did. You’re not responding to a female here, so how does this “prove” your gentle and helpful responses when dealing with women?
Again, after searching through the thread, you’re responding to a MALE, and it’s regarding parenting issues, not one similar to what I said I disliked about your posting style regarding women.
Oh yay, you humanitarian you What else would a person be expected to say when someone has experienced a loss? Again, not what I was speaking of.
Asked and answered above, I never SAID you did anything, I said IIRC. It seemed to me, upon seeing your post in dragongirl’s OP, that I remembered you responding similarly, in similar themed threads before. That is, with little tact, and with a tone of seeming to blame the victim.
IIRC (again, do please note that I am NOT claiming absolute knowledge), there were a few threads, which had been hijacked by one of our infamous radidly foaming at the mouth anti-“feminazi” posters in which you seemed IIRC to come out against the women in that case.
If you’re not that same poster, then you’re not. Which is why I stated TWICE IIRC.
Riiighhht, insult a person’s intelligence because they don’t agree with you.
The fact that you said it was a “tiny part of your point” was what I was arguing against. It is NOT a tiny part of the point. It is a huge part of “the point”, it embodies the entire attitude of this man toward his wife in one neat little package (literally and pun intended).
Are you now saying that you retract that it is, or should be, a tiny part of your point? Okay then. Good. Because THAT is why I had originally said the following: "I think you’re really, REALLY glossing over the blowjob part and the significance of how it took place. The manner in which the husband DEMANDED it as his just due, to “justify him staying married to her” is the issue, not the blowjob itself. That, added to the constant verbal and emotional abuse of her is ridiculous. "
If I missed where you retracted that the blowjob incident was a “tiny part of your point”, I apologize.
Really now. This is a childish sort of way to argue. Were I truly “stupid” as you say above, or unable to read, my words and opinions wouldn’t be worth even a quick passover my posts by you.
I certainly did not insult your intelligence when complaining about your posts. I stuck to the specific thing with which I disagreed, that which you demonstrated in the posts to dragongirl.
