Heloise–I was getting the same impression. Somehow I’m sure there’s a story in there somewhere…
Anyway, I found another story on this, with most of the same information. However, it does specify that the boys
So that clears up that question. My impression upon reading the first story had been the other way around (her on the receiving end–guess I was giving HS boys too much credit). This changes things a bit if only because a bj can be MUCH more discreet than a chick spread-eagled on the lab benches.
And to those stressing the illegality based on ages alone, * I know*. This was–according to the letter of the law–a crime, and of course I’m not disputing that. I’m aware that the statutory rape classification exists to protect the young, and I think it’s necessary. I’m just not convinced–based on the info we have–that it makes sense in this case. I’ll keep an eye out for additional stories.
grienspace, I’m trying to figure out what your point is.
Is anyone here saying that, if your ‘newsflash’ were true, the cheerleaders shouldn’t be charged? I don’t see that here.
Instead, I see a consensus among most posters here that, when older persons are tempted to indulge in sex acts with persons below the age of consent, where the older party is distinctly older than the younger party (at least 2 years, in Louisiana), it’s completely the older party’s responsibility to resist the temptation, and that it’s reasonable for there to be legal consequences of their failure to do so.
Your ‘example’ is rebutting a position that nobody here has taken. If you’re debating the voices in your head, can you please leave us out of it?
belladonna,Heloise, your somewhat correct. Are you psychics?
Actually,as a young naive 25 year old, I had a one night stand with a 15 year old girl who was far more sexually aware, adept and agresseive than I was. This occured when I had just moved into a new community. Although I enjoyed the experience very much, I was scared shitless when I found out the next day that she was 15 and had 6 brothers. I literally jammed a chair under the knob of my bunkhouse door with a baseball bat at my side for several weeks thereafter. The fact that I had sex with a child also plagued me, because as well as feeling stigmatized in my own mind, I was certain I had unwittingly committed a criminal offence.
Perhaps I’m acutely aware that some girls are far more aware of the ways of the world, sexually mature mentally, than many older boys.
RTFirefly, I used a common device to point out the sexism involved in blaming the boys and absolving the girls, even to the point of specifying that these boys are football players, perpetuating another negative stereotype.
Tenebras My school years were in Southern Ontario. All the high schools had frats and sororities. Pledges were expected to do some really stupid things.
I transferred high schools for academic reasons, and the new school had a different syllabus. I took two sciences in one year and missed World History in order to graduate. I took (coincidentally) Biology with a lower grade, which had absolutely nothing to do with my intelligence. I was a jock, too.
Well, there’s nothing but speculation here. I’d have to know the parties involved and the circumstances to make any kind of a judgment.
I can only think back to when I was 18. If a 14-year-old girl wanted to perform oral in class, I would have said no because of the embarrassment. I’m guessing all involved were immature and, er, outgoing. And, if it happened in class, twice, I’m guessing the girl was using free will. Again, speculation, this time on my part.
But, the law’s the law. An 18-year-old should be prosecuted even in a case where all he did was not stop a 14-year-old to perform oral on him. (Hmm, never had that problem in high school. The punishment definitely depends on the details, though.
I agree the articles we have seen so far offer hardly any information about the circumstances of the incident.
However, I don’t understand why the assumption is that the 14 year old girl was hot to trot. The articles don’t say anything about her motivations, or even speculations about her motivations. For all the information that has been provided, she could have been the aggressor, or she might have been bullied, tricked, or otherwise manipulated into participating, in which case victim treatment makes a lot of sense.
grienspace, at what age (for the girl) would it be wrong for the boys to accept her sexual advances? Apparently 14 is OK, what about 13? 12? 9? 6? there’s gotta be a cutoff point somewhere. There is a point at which, regardless of circumstances, it is unacceptable for someone to engage in sexual contact with a younger person. According to the law in LA, that cutoff point is 17, or if the youth is within 2yrs of the elder’s age. This girl was neither, therefore the boy’s comitted a crime.
It does not matter how forward she was, how pretty she is, or whether she can suck start a Buick, she was too young for those boys, they should’ve known better.
This always occurs to me in discussions like this where there is confusion over who was victimized… I assume this doesn’t occur to the ‘victims’ who have been ‘forced’ to perform oral sex, but I know this from experience, and I would think it would be obvious even without experience, that when you have someone’s cock in your mouth… you have the upper hand. Think about it.
Frankly I’m wondering why we don’t here more ‘Lorena Bobbit’ stories, especially with all these stories about people being ‘forced’ to give blow jobs these days.
I personally know two women who were raped, and forced to perform oral. One girl was at a party, 16, and was intimidated and threatened into performing oral. Oh sure, I guess she could have bit his wanker off, but she was 16, at a party with all of his friends. Where’s she gonna go? And, he’s holding her head down, clasping her tightly, cussing and screaming at her. She was damned scared, and 16 - he was older.
The other woman had a break-in in the middle of the night. The guys had weapons, they forced her to do oral on them. They could have killed her. Even if she had bitten down on one guy, the other guy would have finished her off. So she didn’t bite down.
So, are these women “victims”, or not? What say you?
Well I know some people make a moral distinction with the cut off at puperty, hence the term ephebophilia, however I do believe that these boys committed a moral indiscretion here regardless of all the possible scenarios. It is the justification of a criminal charge here that I question, and I don’t care if it is against the law. most of us here have smoked marijuana at one time or another despite legal prohibition.
Furthermore, when you were in high school did you ever consider a girl in your class as off limits due to her age?
As for the possibility she was coerced, I can not believe that any boy is stupid enough to coerce a girl in front of a teacher and 30 classmates. To find two boys that stupid is even more incredible.
RTFirefly , if that is your assessment you should notify the mods, not post your accusation regarding trollery. At 4000 plus posts, you should know the rules by now.
No, I know the rules, but after three years, I still find the concept of trollery to be slippery, without consistent definitions. To me, if you keep on bringing up bad arguments that have already been trashed, that’s trollery. But I don’t think it’s the board definition. (There isn’t one in the FAQ. I checked.)
There aren’t multiple terms here, unfortunately; there’s just one with a range of legitimate meanings, from a linguistic perspective. So I’m not going to report you, since I’m not sure there’s something to report. In my opinion, you’re being a jerk here, but as many others have noted, there’s a big difference between bad behavior by debate standards and bad behavior by board standards. (There was a very excellent thread on this over the winter, that was unfortunately wiped out in the board crash.) I’m accusing you of the first type of jerkishness, not the second.
If it isn’t the board definition of troll, then why use the word? You will then just have to come back with a second post explaining what you really meant.
So, here are some of my own terms, used in my own way; feel free to attach whichever definition you want:
It is totally possible that the girl was coerced in some physical or mental way into giving these particular blow jobs; it seems more likely (to me, based on the information presented) that all parties were very willing. However, at 14 she is legally unable to be very willing and these boys will pay the penalty.
RTFirefly is being a jerk himself, I suggest we not feed this particular troll.
grienspace is being ineffectual, though I don’t really see anything too jerkish in what he has written. Apparently, this is a burr up RTFirefly’s butt; I suggest we find a volunteer to apply a soothing ointment.
It’s a big sidetrack, but I’m intrigued now to know what percentage of Dopers are dopers. I personally wouldn’t be at ALL surprised if it squeaked into the majority rating. It’s a fairly youngish crowd after all.
As for grienspace’s point:
It doesn’t matter how much she personally might “want it”. A five year old wants nothing but ice cream. An ten year old wants nothing but computer games. These aren’t decisions that we feel, as a society, they are competent to make. We extend that to fourteen year olds and sex. A fourteen year old can never consent to sex because they are not competent to make that consent.
Coercion can take many forms. The number of witnesses to the actual event are irrelevant.
I too would like to know why a 14 year old is in a class with 17 and 18 year olds anyway. Could she have been there for anything other than nefarious purposes? If not, why did the teacher even let her in the class?