My son was on Good Start because it was recommended by the agency as “most similar” to what was fed in Korea - and soy because the formula he’d been on would have been likely not been milk based (I do have the canister and at some point may show it to a Korean friend who might tell me what exactly he was fed over there - I suspect we were completely misinformed). We switched him to milk based Good Start eventually, used Good Start for my daughter until my milk came in (my family gets a late start), then used it again when she rejected the breast at six months (“Mom, things are HAPPENING out there and I can’t see them with my face in your chest!”)
I think the point was that smoking, Twinkies/corn dogs diet, etc. don’t affect the quality of the breastmilk. Not that breastfeeding “makes up for it” somehow. I don’t believe the previous poster said anything about meth.
Nipple confusion is mostly only an issue in the first 2-4 weeks, and LCs etc. do recommend that if possible, you hold off on introducing a bottle - even a bottle of breastmilk - until breastfeeding is well established and you’re past that time period.*
No offense, but you seem extremely angry about LLL and breastfeeding advocates for someone who says that her only experience with them was a “bad vibe” from one person.
Regarding formula coupons and samples, my guess is that they don’t market heavily to adoptive parents because they know those people are going to use formula anyway. I saw an article a while back about someone who filled out an online pregnancy survey twice under two different names; once she put that she was planning to formula feed, and once she put that she planned to breastfeed. The “breastfeeding mom” got showered with formula coupons, free samples, etc.; the “formula feeding mom” got nada. You would kinda think the formula companies would try harder to develop brand loyalty even among people who are never going to breastfeed anyway, but that’s not where their marketing seems to be focused. Although I do know that like Sarahfeena said, you can sign up with the companies directly to have them send you coupons and whatnot.
- Not all babies experience nipple confusion. I am aware of this, so nobody needs to post about how their babies, their sister’s babies, and in fact every baby they know had a bottle at 2 days old and managed to breastfeed just fine.
It’s just that some babies do, so the advice to wait a few weeks on bottles is to avoid the risk.
Really, I find that hard to believe since so many nursing moms I know have had to limit their diets due to the reactions their babies had. And I was told to lay off caffeine and alcohol while nursing. Medications taken during nursing are restricted - but whatever keeps a Twinkie fresh for 64 years doesn’t come through breastmilk - learn something new every day.
In marketing share is king. Sure, you want to increase your market (moving breastfeeders to bottlefeeders, car drivers to light trucks, pet free households to pet households), but competitively speaking, adoptive parents WILL purchase formula (adoptive breastfeeding IS rarely successful to the point you don’t need to suppliment, the few who can induce lactation or use donor milk might avoid formula - donor milk tends to be prioritized for preemies and special needs babies from my understanding), and therefore WILL need to choose between you and your competitors. Taking share away from your competitors (or getting it in the first place when the consumer makes their first car/formula/pet food brand choice) is easier, more controllable, and has a bigger impact on the industry (your gain is their loss, instead of your gain being just a gain) than increasing the market size.
Here is the thing about coupons - if you don’t want them, throw them away. Give them to someone who is bottlefeeding - there are whole forums on the internet to trade formula coupons. Breastfeeding advocates seem to get so upset over formula samples and coupons because they think it undermines. And frankly, if someone’s will to breastfeed is so weak - its going to be the sore nipples that get them, not the $1 off coupon. Do BF advocates really think women are so weak minded that “ooooh! A coupon!” is really motivating?
Yes, I know that. I was talking about what I have seen/heard of, in regards to formula marketing. It appears to be targeted much more heavily at mothers who intend to breastfeed than mothers who intend to formula feed. I am not suggesting anything about this strategy (i.e. that it is smart, not smart, whatever) other than that it is what I have observed.
Are you talking to me? Because I didn’t say anything about formula samples undermining breastfeeding or whatever. I know it’s an issue that is frequently brought up, though. My gripe (and it’s a small one) with the formula coupons is that because women are usually given these things by the hospital or their OB, it’s this unspoken suggestion that you should go ahead and use the formula. After all, if breastfeeding were really best, why would your doctor be giving you formula samples? It just seems like a mixed message to me. But I’m not going on the warpath about it.
First of all, Twinkies don’t stay fresh for 64 years, they go stale like anything else once out of the airtight wrapper. Moderate caffeine and alcohol consumption are generally acceptable while breastfeeding, although there was a Zero Tolerance style push in the '90s. While any baby can have food sensitivities (garlic, onions, cauliflower and broccoli being the most common culprits), it’s most often due to sulfur compounds which naturally occur in those foods that irritate the bowel, not because of preservatives.
Most drugs do not come through the breast milk, although there are some exceptions. Actually, far more stuff is to be avoided during pregnancy than breastfeeding. Most common drugs, including ibuprofen, acetaminophen, Sudafed, even narcotics like codeine and morphine are considered “usually compatible” with nursing by the AAP. I think this is a big chunk of information most women don’t have but should: you don’t have to stay miserable when you have a cold, you don’t have to give up breastfeeding because you need painkillers, you **don’t **have to give up your evening glass of wine, and you **can **have a cup of coffee! LactMed Search is a great medical resource for information on drugs and their possible effects and safety during nursing.
The human body is really good at making good breastmilk, even with a lousy diet. If there’s not enough calcium in her diet, her body will take it from her bones and teeth and put it in the milk. If there’s not enough protein, it will take it from her muscles. But most of us, even eating crappy American diets, have more than enough macronutrients, and encouraging the use of prenatal vitamins while nursing covers the micronutrients nicely. It’s a lot easier to get women to take some vitamins than make drastic diet changes.
If it wasn’t, they wouldn’t do it. Why lose the money if a woman would buy the product anyway? Advertising works. It has nothing to do with being weak-minded, only with being normal human beings. We all like to think we’re stronger, more intelligent and more logical than that, but we’re not. Advertising is a multi-billion dollar industry because we spend billions we otherwise wouldn’t have to pay for it.
Isn’t there a contradiction here? If the LLL is concerned that the husbands are subtly undermining the mother’s decision, shouldn’t they be interested in providing some form of support and information to the fathers as well? I understand why the main meetings are women’s only, but what about some sort of couples’ meetings, as tygre suggested, or men’s auxiliary meetings, where the dads can get information and learn about the issues from their perspective?
That was hyperbole. It seems one can do anything, including make really poor choices elsewhere, but if you’re BF, you’re a great mom. This is just not true.
Oh, dear. I think everyone in this thread knows this. I was merely saying that none of my kids had nipple confusion.
No, not all that angry at LLL–as I said, I didn’t deal much with them. Angry at women being made to feel lesser as mothers (or smug as mothers) due to informed choices? You bet I’m angry about that.
I just cannot see formula companies as evil. I can see them attempting to keep their market share, certainly, like any company. IMO, what little I know of what they have done overseas is unconscionable, but we are not overseas. I used the Evenflo manual breast pump provided in the nursing kit which was sponsored by some formula or other. They say marketing and name recognition works, but I felt no obligation to use those formula coupons (someone in a different income bracket would have, I’m sure).
But see, this was my point. The way it’s presented is NOT this way at all, but as “if you shove that bottle into your baby’s face, you’ll mess him up, yo.” I was very worried because my babies DIDN’T show signs of nipple confusion. It should be presented as “this might occur so be aware of it”. Instead it comes off as “if we can get you to BF for up to 4 weeks, you won’t bottle feed.” And let’s be honest, that is the agenda.
I find it sad that something that is beneficial for an infant* has become such a bone of contention among women. But I also cannot bring myself to jump through the hoops presented by LLL and LCs just to prove I’m a good mother. We all assemble our mothering on the job, as we go. I presented my stories, which are my truth. A mom with a newborn or one with a cleft pallate or one with a weak suck or inverted nipples or whoknowswhat will have very different stories. I am not advocating that everyone do what I did; I did what I thought was best at the time. Would I try harder, now that I’ve had a good (but still not optimal–I shouldn’t have “quit” at 6 months–see how the judgment is so pervasive?) nursing experience? Sure. But I can’t go back and redo. My kids are healthy, strong and well. I can’t see that what I did was so bad. Why is it seen as such by LLL?
*I’m willing to argue that it’s not all that beneficial for the mom. Loss of weight? Dream on… Also, if mom’s diet is pure crap, where does the excellent nutrition of breastmilk come from. We all know that “baby taking from mom’s teeth for the calcium” is incorrect, right?(WhyNot-I seem to remember a study some years ago debunking the loss of calcium from teeth).
But what about other nutrients? I don’t know much about that area (my father does, but I’m not about to open that can of worms!) I wonder if the relationship isn’t parasitic in a way–baby fed at expense of mother. Anyone know?
Actually, what you said was:
I am glad that you now acknowledge that everyone in the thread knows there is no inherent contradiction in this.
Cite that baby taking calcium from the mother’s stores is a fairytale, please.
I can tell you from personal experience as a type 2 diabetic that my blood sugar has been far easier to control (i.e., much closer to normal) while I’m breastfeeding and that I have also lost significant weight while breastfeeding each of my kids (I started out overweight). Of course, my personal experience isn’t really relevant when we’re talking about overall trends and risk factors. Neither is yours.
Edit window closed on me. I am not interested in arguing that bottle is better, btw. I don’t think it is. I just find breast impractical after a certain amount of time, even being a SAHM. Our society (no doubt to our detriment) is not set up to accommodate BF exclusively. I think most women feel somewhat bad about this (not all, and I’ll defend those women who don’t), but can’t see a way to make the change. Neither can I. Marry wealth would be one avenue, I suppose. Live poor, but that has other disadvantages to Baby et al. Become a best selling author or work at some job at home that allows for whole days devoted to getting Junior to take anything in at all.
I don’t know that any of these would work. Rich guys are few on the ground and not all of them are even nice. And what of the women (like Sarah Palin) who want and/or need to get back to their work, ASAP? Do we know if Palin is breastfeeding?
I can see someone of her power position being able to set her agenda re timing out to pump, but even her job (especially with the campaign now) is unpredictable, time intensive and chaotic as to meals for her and feedings for Algebra or whateverthehellhisnameis.
From what I remember and what I’ve read here, LLL seems to be dealing with this harsh reality by somewhat ignoring it and /or giving the women a note to take to their boss. Many jobs just aren’t set up to accommodate this kind of thing. Most women do not want to make themselves a visible target and advocate for change. So, we’re left with guilt (and anger), both of which are counterproductive. It will take a societal shift, akin to the one we had recently (the whole women can actually have credit? And jobs? And their brains work much like men’s do? Incredible!).
I never nursed on the job and it boggles my mind as to how anyone could. When I am at work, I am in work mode. I call to check on my kids twice a shift (when they were little). They (the sitter) were only to call if it was an emergency. Sometimes “emergency” was defined as using the potty or losing a tooth, but that was fine. My point is that there is no way I could have just stopped what I was doing, gone into a room and looked at a picture of Baby and pumped. Kudos to the women who can do that–it’s like wiggling your ears to me. Not going to happen. I don’t think I’m an outlier, statistically here.
Don’t get me wrong: I am angry that women are (somewhat) marginalized re BF. Do I want to see your breast exposed at the mall? Why, no, I don’t. But most nursing babies don’t expose the breast and why a nursing blanket can’t be used escapes me. But it was me who wasn’t comfortable nursing in front of my FIL–I am not a “I’m loud and proud” sort of person. He respected that, but it did make for some slightly awkward moments. We coped–no biggie.
Just a quick add-on to the post above that said it’s fine for nursing moms to take cold medications.
As I understand it, it doesn’t hurt the baby, so it’s definitely fine in that sense. However, for some women it can decrease milk supply and lead to early weaning. If you are nursing and take cold or allergy meds, and you notice decreased supply, you may want to switch to a different active ingredient before taking much more.
(My recollection is that this is worst for women in late-stage lactation, and not as big a risk early on.)
Baby kicked it off every time. I finally realized that discreetly lifting my shirt without making a big fuss over it was much less attention-grabbing than putting on the blanket, having the baby kick it off, attempting to reposition the blanket while the baby was still halfway latched on, having the baby kick it off again, tucking the top of the blanket into my shirt, having the baby grab the blanket and then pop off the breast entirely to look around and play this fun new blanket game that Mom is doing, etc. But as you say, nursing babies typically don’t expose the breast anyway.
But there is an inherent contradiction. Mothers are advised to not introduce a bottle because it will cause nipple confusion. There was no “might” about it. I was referring to the chance encounters mothers have in public while they’re holding a bottle (which may well contain breast milk). I wasn’t clear about that, sorry. But even a bottle filled with breast milk is deemed inferior, IMS. My question is why do we have to be like this to new moms? As if the job wasn’t hard enough? That is the source of my strong feelings regarding this topic. And it’s women who do this to women. It’s horrible.
I went back and changed my post from fairytale (which seemed unnecessarily snarky) to what it is now.
Here is my cite. It does not refer to teeth specifically, which was my point. NOT the mother’s stores, as you say.
bones, no teeth
Here is a quote from the site: " Breastfeeding also has an affect on a mother’s bones. Studies have shown that women often lose 3 to 5 percent of their bone mass during breastfeeding, although it is rapidly recovered after weaning. This bone loss may be caused by the growing baby’s increased need for calcium, which is drawn from the mother’s bones."
Absolutely Baby takes from Mama. My question is what happens when Mama’s in pretty bad shape to start off with? Not good things, really. And no amount of breastfeeding will change Mama into earth-mother. She will need to take personal responsibility for her nutrition and general health. As I posted before, I get a bit wary of the pregnant woman’s diet police and the BF mom’s keepers. Of course I see that optimal nutrition is beneficial for both; I’m not arguing that. I’m saying two things: I worry about woman becoming vessel both before and after birth, and I don’t think that a dedication to BF makes up for poor personal choices. I’m not saying you or anyone else said that–I’m just making a point here.
I’m glad it worked for you. It just doesn’t work for ALL women and to be told that it will is a betrayal. I’m not talking about scientific studies now, I’m talking about women chatting to one another and be presented with info (misinfo often enough). “oh, you’re breastfeeding? You’ll drop weight like crazy!” That sort of stuff.
I want to make something clear here: I am not the enemy. LLL is not my enemy. It is an organization whose methods I don’t agree with (and don’t approve of). I am all for choice for women re BF. But to me that means freedom of choice to not BF. A world where BF was the norm and formula was the outlier would be great, but we don’t live in that world. We won’t live in that world without a massive change in our societal structure and culture. What do we do about the world that we actually live in? To me, that’s the more important question. YMMV.
Okay. I’ve been out in public bottlefeeding a baby or with someone else who was bottlefeeding many a time and have never had someone randomly come up and start talking about nipple confusion, but I’ll accept that it happens. In your initial post, you appeared to be talking about the advice from La Leche, and LLL only advises to avoid bottlefeeding in the early 2-4 week period.
Thank you. My (and others’) earlier point was not that breastfeeding makes up for a poor diet or that a poor diet is a good idea or anything like that. It was that the conventional wisdom that formula feeding is better if Mom has a poor diet is incorrect, because the nutritional content of breastmilk doesn’t change that much unless Mom is seriously malnourished. Your cite confirms this.
The propagation of factoids like “if you eat a poor diet you should probably just formula feed anyway,” and “you’re not supposed to give a bottle ever,” and “breastfeeding hardly ever works for working mothers,” is part of what leads to our culture of poor breastfeeding support, IMO. Building it up like it’s some kind of lofty goal that only a select few can ever hope to achieve is just not accurate. It is really not that big a deal. It doesn’t work for some people, and thank god we have formula for those people, but for most people, it can work.
Incidentally, I feel like I should say that the whole reason I stuck with breastfeeding my first baby even though it was hell on wheels wasn’t because I was filled with the holy fervor of “breast is best” or anything. It was because formula is expensive and we were broke. That’s not really relevant to anything, I guess, I just felt like mentioning it because I’m feeling like I’m coming across as some kind of True Believer in the Cause, and I really don’t think of myself that way.
It saddens me a lot to see breast feeding become such a bone of contention, either on this forum or in “the world” in general.
I nursed both my children, in 1965 and the second in 1971. I intended throughout my pregnancies to breast feed, and I can tell you it was not the norm. Luckily for me the nurse who primarily cared for new mothers in our tiny country hospital was an Englishwoman who had borne and nursed 6 children of her own. My experience was wonderful, and I nursed my child until he was a year old. 6 years later I had my second child in a larger hospital and if it hadn’t been for my great doctor, my experience would have been very different. The maternity ward nurses didn’t like to have to be bothered lugging the babies to their mothers’ rooms for the 2 AM feeding, so they took it upon themselves to give the babies bottles. I had to go to the nursery and literally get into a big argument over it and in the end they “gave in”. One comment I got was “a little skinny thing like you won’t be able to nurse!” Had I been a first time mother, I might have paid attention to that and given up. I complained to my doctor and he went to the nursery and ripped them a new one as they say and after that they let me be. I nursed the baby for a year, no problems, a happy experience.
But most of my friends having babies at the same time didn’t breast feed. I didn’t go all judgemental on them, and I still don’t. Years later my youngest sister desperately wanted to nurse her first, and it was a nightmare for her and she ended up feeding him with a bottle and felt like a failure no matter what we said. I was lucky, I was a stay-at-home mum, had plenty of support and encouragement from both my mum and my m-i-l. I think it would be great if every woman had such an experience, but the reality is, not everyone can, for a whole variety of reasons.
I seldom nursed my babies anywhere but at home or in my mum’s house (didn’t get out much) but once with the second baby, in 1971, I was sitting in our car at the library and nursing the child. My husband had gone in to return our books and while he was gone a nasty old bat walked by, glanced in and saw a nursing baby (not much boob showing) and she went off on a rant about “hippies” and “perverts” and while I wanted to get out and smack her, instead I just rolled the window up and stuck my tongue out at her. No one less like a hippy than I was could be imagined, either!
One friend said she didn’t like to think of babies suckling because “it’s just like animals” and that made me head go wugga-wugga, for sure. But she was more the rule than the exception, the idea was that bottles were modern and scientific and nursing was for people in poor countries. Still, I never had to wash and sterilize one bottle, never had to mix or buy formula; it was simple, cheap, and easy.
There is enough stress and strain in being a new mother without having pressure to be the perfect Earth Mother. Yes, our bodies are designed for feeding babies and left to nature, most of us could probably do fine. But we aren’t Children of the Forest any more. Babies and mums do better if they’re relaxed and content, and if formula and bottles work best for that, then go with formula and bottles.
They are MY breasts and I get to decide to when they’ll be seen. I don’t want to be judged for showing my breasts nursing in a McDonalds OR judged for NOT showing my breasts in a LLL meeting. You seem to spend a lot of time worrying about what other people are doing.
Sheesh, from the responses I’ve gotten on this, you’d think I said, “You should nurse your baby without covering - stop using that blanket!!” I said nothing of the kind, nor did I say I was judging the individual women doing this (how would I be judging them anyway, “That woman isn’t a good mom because she wants to cover her breasts” or something? That makes no sense). I am lamenting our culture’s crazy treatment of breasts as some scary sexual fetish object that will drive men to an erotic frenzy and corrupt nearby children. I’m sad that this crazy attitude may be putting another hurdle in front of women who would want to breastfeed.
Do whatever you want with your body. As I said, do whatever makes breastfeeding work for you, if you want to breastfeed. I still think our society is nuts about breasts, in the same way that I was horrified while watching the movie *Beowulf *that they went to ridiculous lengths to cover up the nude hero’s penis, but detailed attention to a monster ripping people in half or biting their heads off was A-OK. (N.B., this is not an exhortation to all men to expose themselves, and I’m not judging guys who wear pants.)
One problem I think I’ve seen with breastfeeding advocacy is that there’s no good time for a new mother to get a medical recommendation to do it. The OB who takes care of you before the baby is born doesn’t care, and you really don’t see a doctor for the baby until after it’s born and the decision is most likely already made. Having an LC talk to you about it after the delivery is probably too late for women who have been assuming all along that they won’t nurse. As I recall, the pediatricians who assessed my babies in the hospital didn’t ask about it, and by the time they were seen by their own pediatrician, it’s pretty much too late. I recall the doctor asked how I was feeding them, and since I was exclusively breastfeeding at the beginning, they asked me questions to see if it was going ok. It wasn’t really going that great with my first one (she was slow to latch properly), and they didn’t have much to say about except that I should see an LC, and to watch for signs of dehydration (and give her formula if necessary). They were definitely more concerned that she was getting enough to eat than whether she was breastfed or not (which I guess is reasonable, but didn’t help me that much, since I really wanted to make breastfeeding work).
This is one thing I really like about the idea of midwives, as I get more of a feeling that they consider the whole process of pregnancy, delivery, and new motherhood as a whole event, not broken up into parts. I think it would really great if there was a medical specialty (or a nursing specialty woud be good too) that cares for the mother and the baby both before AND after birth. The idea that the baby is the OB’s patient until 5 minutes after it’s born has always seemed strange to me.
I think we have been misunderstanding one another. I don’t think a stranger is going to accost a mother nursing in public and tell her about nipple confusion. I was referring to books like What to Expect the First Year (no, I no longer own my copy so I can’t quote) and advice given by nurses, LCs etc.
I really had no idea what LLL’s stance on nipple confusion was (and did not claim such, but I can see where you might infer that).
I do know that I was told repeatedly to not introduce a bottle because it would case NC. It never did in any of my babies so instead of thinking, well they’re just wrong–I thought, what is up with my baby? Not because I’m a dunderhead but because as a new mom you are terrified of making a mistake and of your experience not being the “norm”. It’s only until much later that you figure out that your experience is pretty much the norm… for you.
If anything, I wish the so called experts would emphasize the incredible variance that exists in new moms and babies, but instead we get a narrow range of “normal” (and to be fair, some things are only normal in a narrow range).
Aha! Now I see your point and I understand. We agree, then.
I think we are dealing with a slight difference in generations here. You’re on BF 3.0 or something. I had my “boob nazi” experiences in the late 80s and early 90s–I never heard the “poor diet so might as well formula feed” stuff. I heard constantly that bottle=bad and how could you do that to your helpless infant, you poor excuse for a mother you (paraphrased).
But looked at practically–it doesn’t work for many working mothers. I have no idea how lace factory workers did it in Victorian cities in Great Britain, unless they had some kind of a wet nurse. How can it work pragmatically speaking?
I agree, but also think that any BF is better than none. And if you do it for a week or 6 weeks or 3 days or one year–that IS your BF.
To my cynical mind, this is your best argument yet. It IS cheaper than formula, hands down, no contest. But it may not be cheaper long term if you look at loss of income for mom (if her job doesn’t support nursing). It’s portable, cheap, never too hot or cold–it’s great in a lot of respects. In others, it’s not.
No, it’s very relevant, and not only because it’s your experience. I think you are getting fallout (fairly or not) for the militancy that some of us have experienced.
What I’d like to see is women supporting women, no matter their choice. We had a similar discussion about this regarding Bristol Palin in another thread. It is her choice (if a true choice was given her) to keep her baby. That’s what choice is all about. I have never seen (and hope not to) is strangers berating nursing mothers for nursing in public (I know it happens and that’s sad, but it must also be said that some mothers–not a lot–want to make a political statement out of it.)
I think I’m going to make irishfella read this thread…
He’s all for having a baby now.
I’d like to wait a little, so this gives me some ammo.
Let me reiterate, I do not speak for LLL. As you yourself say, using formula increases the risk of SIDS. The person I was responding to was questioning whether there was harm in formula. I was using an extreme example to make the point that yes, there is harm. Unless you only think a 1:1 direct causation is harm, and merely increasing risk doesn’t qualify.
In this case, I think the references to these things were an ignorant attempt to make it seem like breastfeeding is as risky as formula feeding, and I wanted to correct the wrong assumptions underlying that argument.
Try as I might, I can’t figure out what in my comment is angering you so. Did you misread it? I said in such a situation I would use formula. How does this make you want to bang your head?
I don’t personally give a crap how long you breastfed. I do give a crap that you are calling my choice “messed up shit.” Also, you *have *been presented sensible arguments for it, since you participated in my extended nursing thread. Though frankly, your purpose seemed to be primarily to make snarky sexualizing comments about the practice, so perhaps it’s not surprising that none of the arguments sunk in.
Northern Piper, LLL does include dads when there is interest and resources to do so. Here is LLL’s philosophy statement on it: “Breastfeeding is enhanced and the nursing couple sustained by the loving support, help, and companionship of the baby’s father. A father’s unique relationship with his baby is an important element in the child’s development from early infancy.”
Oh, and for those who worry that LLL says breastfeeding somehow erases the negative effects of poor diet, here’s what they actually say: “Good nutrition means eating a well-balanced and varied diet of foods in as close to their natural state as possible,” which is presented as a goal we all may fall short of sometimes, but definitely what to shoot for.