You’re right, I misremembered slightly. Breastfeeding can leach calcium from, among other bones, the alveolar bone **around **the teeth, which can lead to increased periodontal disease and tooth loss. No mention of calcium loss from the actual tooth.
The Old Wives got this right. “Lose a tooth with every child” isn’t a fairytale, but a real risk, especially for those with low bone density pre-pregnancy. Not because the body takes calcium from the teeth, but because it takes it from the bone that holds teeth in. Taking a calcium supplement (or your prenatal) or increasing dietary calcium can help prevent this.
WhyNot–I was thinking of my mother who claims that all her dental issues stem from her BFing (which she stopped at like 4 weeks or so, so no way could it have done any harm). Also, I had read (when pregnant) that nursing could cause tooth loss (which it may, indirectly as you say–a very good point and one that I did not run across in my quick search) or decay (which is complete nonsense)*.
Unauthorized Cinnamon: Couple of things. I freely admitted to being biased against long term (range?) breastfeeding beyond infancy. I hold to that. I didn’t go back and reread whatever I posted–I had completely forgotten about that thread. I don’t approve of it. That’s my opinion. However, it is a choice and you are free to make it. Do you want approval of your choice or the freedom to make it? If it’s approval, you won’t get it. I don’t think you’re basing your actions on my approval or not (I hope not), so why does it matter?
RE the working mum who cannot breast feed. I was answering general remarks (as I was through most of this thread), not you specifically. My point was that there is no feasible way a bedside RN can take care of pts for her shift AND breastfeed/pump–at least not in the working world that I am familiar with. My issue with it is that women are made to feel bad (not by you, a general guilting) for this reality. That is what truly sucks, IMO.
*for the mom. We all know about “bottle mouth”, right? Well, breast milk in a bottle can do as much harm as formula… to baby’s teeth, not mama’s.
I did go back and read the first page of that other thread. There is no equating sex with bf there or sexualizing BF-the phrase itself, “discipline begins at the breast” struck me as odd (an oddly sexual phrase) then and it does now; not the act of BFing. I didn’t sexualize anything, so I’m not sure where you get that from.
Why isn’t personal comfort a good enough rationale for not liking something?
Absolutely. But your discomfort is not a rationale for saying that what other people are doing is somehow wrong or bad, which seems to be the tenor of your comments. And obviously you are the best source for your own motivations, but I still think you came off as snarky and trying to, at best, make a bad joke in that thread.
Luckily, yes, I don’t need your approval to do what I want. But I object to the “I’m squicked out, therefore no one should do it” idea.
But I don’t think anyone here sees it that way or is worried about that. Some of us just consider it a private part of our body, and I guess we’re having trouble understanding why it’s a sad thing that we feel more dignified when private parts of our bodies aren’t exposed.
Snarky is as snarky does. You opened this thread with the thought of talking about this red button issue; a “rational discussion”. You admit to BF counselors being a “little overzealous” but want us to understand their POV and give them the benefit of the doubt.
That seems ok and on the face of it I have no problem with the impetus, but as has been seen in this thread, that hasn’t always worked for women. That same overzealousness hurt some of the women here, so much that they showed their anger, sometimes years later. That to me is more than overzealousness–that is militancy. Again, I’m a middle of the roader when it comes to stuff like this.
What’s funny about this thread is that no one is disagreeing with you or **WhyNot **re the subtle and not so subtle undermining that goes on. My mother did it, for one, by pretending to be the baby and saying in a high voice (over and over again):" the service in this restaurant is terrible." and “are you a good cow?”-- I had tons of milk and no problems nursing. She was a bitch about it and I was too young and inexperienced to fight back. But I was also sick and didn’t know it.
The main thrust of the argument has been one “side” saying–hey, LLL et al. is over the top and so are moms who are strident about BF. Here is my anecdote and my pain. And the other “side” is saying, hey, that sucks for you as an individual but still the Cause is still so great that you should put up with whatever tactics LLL (or LCs or other “experts”) uses for the Greater Good. Someone mentioned BFing in public even if the mom isn’t comfortable with that to help bring down the barriers for all women.
Don’t you see why there is not a meeting of the minds here? Mothers are individuals with different comfort zones, different needs and different expectations for themselves and their babies. One size fits all is not going to work. MrsWhatsit has recognized that, as did you yourself re the working and bottle feeding. Why can’t the entire issue be seen in this light?
But I didn’t say you shouldn’t do it. I didn’t say no one should do it. I said it was messed up* and not a choice I’d make. I hold to that. I haven’t heard a convincing argument for it from you. I’ve heard that I’m snarky (true in general, but not so much in that old thread), that I sexualize BF(that is just bizarre), that I am judgmental.
I’ll agree on the last one re this issue. I also say that my judgement doesn’t matter (or shouldn’t) to you, nor should yours matter to me. It doesn’t. So what are we left with? A need for approval? A desire to come to consensus? I don’t know. You did what you thought was right, as did I. If your daughter does not do as you did, are you ok with that? What about a DIL?
I think that is the true test of this live and let live philosophy. I want my daughter and DILs to try BF, but what I want most is for them to be happy moms who feel confident about their mothering. I know you must feel the same way. If one way is longterm BF, so be it. If another way is not BF at all, so be it. YMMV.
*not my most tactful. Sorry about the lack of tact.
And, by the way, so can nursing all night long. An unexpected side effect of co-sleeping! I’ve had 3 co-sleeping friends with toddlers who need caps because of “bottle mouth” despite never having a bottle. Co-sleeping, they’d find the breast and latch on, often without waking mom up, and have a mouthful of milk for hours as they slept. Bottle or breast, milk has sugars, and sugars on teeth cause decay.
[irrelevant aside]Oh, ick. And poor baby. I will just say here that of the many “gross” pictures I was subjected to as a student nurse, only two squicked me out: the one where the eyeball is out of its socket, but still attached to the person, and nursing/bottle mouth. [/end irrelevant aside]
I worked for a company in the health care industry that for years tried to promote breast-feeding and encourage women to breast feed at least 6 months.
The company had a storeroom converted to a breast-pumping room, including a refrigerator for new moms returning to work to store their milk. Great, huh?
NO breaks or accommodation for pumping, though - you can just do it on your lunch hour, asking for breaks otherwise was seen as TOTALLY unreasonable and I knew of at least two women who were subjected to penalities for having the audacity to suggest that they needed to pump more often than once in an eight hour day (which had a one hour commute on each end of it, on top of that).
High-level management women, whose schedules were more flexible than the rank and file and who had offices with doors could, of course, take care of this, but the secretaries and mid-level managers would up using formula because invariably their milk dried up and then they were subjected to criticism for not continuing to breast feed.
I’m not even a mother and it pissed me off to see this.
You know, on reflection, I really think this was my beef. I don’t mind disagreement, but some politeness and civility is always nice. So thank you for your apology.
And yeah, my daughters will have to make their own decisions, and aside from correcting wrong information, I think I’ll keep my mouth shut. I truly believe only the individual knows enough about their situation to decide when the drawbacks are overcoming the benefits of breastfeeding. But I also hope to keep up with the latest research on child rearing, so I hope not to be an outdated old biddy spouting advice that was current decades ago. If they for some reason found that putting babies to sleep on their stomachs was safer after all, it would be odd and uncomfortable, but I’d refrain from squawking, “You should put that baby on her back - that’s what I did and you’re fine!”
This is addressed in the Health Services blueprint.
I’m not sure how much of this is the midwife having more knowledge or experience, or approaching care of mothers-to-be more holistically, or some other factors. OB/GYNs may know a lot about lactation and after-birth care, but steer clear of those topics so they don’t step on a pediatrician’s toes. Also most OB/GYNs in the US are very risk-averse and don’t want to offer medical advice outside their field of specialty. If a baby sickens and dies as a result of a woman following a OB/GYN’s advice regarding feeding, it could sink their practice/career. Midwives don’t generally have such high standards regarding their liability for their medical advice. Similarly, they don’t really give a crap about stepping on a pediatrician’s toes.
Add the complication of insurance companies, and lots of barriers.
In an ideal world, a woman would pick and start visiting a pediatrician regularly somewhere around month seven or eight - not many appointments - because not much can be done by the pediatrician until there is a baby, but at least one, and likely two. One get to know you appointment with the Ped, and one or two with the Ped’s nurse - who would ask things like “are you going to breastfeed? We encourage all our new moms to give it a try and have a lot of support available for you if you want to try it…” Also "this is what we recommend you have in the house (infant Tylenol, gas stuff, ipecac, whatever the Pediatrician wants in the house for a newborn.) Do you need parenting courses? Here are the resources (not labor and delivery courses, those the OB does a fine job with - the ‘what happens when you get home!’). This is normal baby stuff … if THESE things happen, set up an appointment… if THESE things happen, call us right away…these are the 911 things…
However, insurance companies generally aren’t interested in paying for that - and clinic staff is usually overworked as it is…
One of the things that’s almost inevitable is that your OB will practice in the hospital you deliver in - but your Pediatrician may not be able to see patients in that hospital - so babies first check up is with a strange Pediatrician.
There is a gap of care immediately postpartum, isn’t there? On a practical level, this can be filled by a postpartum doula in some areas, but they’re still fairly rare. But they’re there for practical advice and assistance, not medical care.
I definitely think there is a holistic approach that midwives have that doctors don’t have, and you are right…docs really have to be careful to stick to what they’ve been trained to do. And Dangerosa is right, too, that insurance is also an issue. I like the idea of having pre-birth peds visits! That would have helped so much. The hour or so you spend in the childbirthing class, learning how to swaddle was nice, but I think it would really be great to have a doctor talk about some of the issues they start grilling you on once the kid is born!
That’s true. I mean, you have the kid, they send you home 2 days later, and then nothing for 6 weeks. And we all know what that visit is really for!
My experience at a freestanding birth center with midwives was quite different. First, they have breastfeeding and parenting classes and resources for pregnant women. Then, the midwives took care of me *and *the baby on the day of her birth. We went home that same day, and three days later a midwife came to my house to check me and the baby. Thereafter, the baby needed to get her own doctor, but she didn’t need a well baby check until (how quickly memory fades) one or two months. I felt like it was a good continuum of care - they were also always available if I had questions or difficulties. IIRC on day 2 I was getting sore and we went in and got some latch help that fixed it within 24 hours.
Sarahfeena, what is the six week visit really for? Oh, maybe you mean the pap smear? Yeah, that’s fun.
With my delivery a pediatrician made rounds, but it wasn’t MY Ped - just one on the hospital staff. So the baby was seen every day by an MD. And I had an appointment with the Ped for two days after (which was when we found out we were in danger of needing hospitalization due to the breastmilk issue) and 72 hours after release the hospital sent an RN to the home that weighed baby and checked on Mom…so there really wasn’t a gap - but in part because I already had a pediatrician because when I gave birth for the first time I had a baby at home.
As for me and postpartum, I had several calls to the doctors office for mastitis, passing “larger than a golf ball” blood clots, etc. Though I think all of them were handled over the phone…
IIRC our pediatrician came and saw our babies at the hospital. Maybe that was only #2, I’m not sure. Anyway, the hospital here sends nurses over for home visits a couple of times after you go home. With our #2, she had developed jaundice and the nurse brought us a baby tanning booth. All in all, I was quite happy with the care we got, but then I never had any real problems with nursing–they kept checking, though.
To follow up on my post (I have been reading, but not responding): Like others in the thread, I’d much rather breastfeeding weren’t as much a class (and gender!) as health issue. Unfortunately, that’s not the world we live in.
Now, if everyone will excuse me, I’ll be curled up in a ball trying to forget eleanorigby’s eyeball comment. ick ick ick.
(Do what you want with your breasts, but keep your eyeballs in your head, people!)
