BSG 3/4/07: "Maelstrom" **SPOILERS**

[joemama24_98]

Wanted to add:
I’m not lobbying for her character to return, but would a little irritated if they just killed her off like this for a shock effect. I don’t necessarily mind, but hell, why not advance the main story-line instead?

This whole season seems to be mostly pointless episodes so far (which frankly suck, IMHO) especially that the show, as far as I can tell, has never been destined for a long run (season 4 just got negotiated). I’d hate to see the series canned w/ out any real resolution to the main story line, which to me seems to be a distinct possibility.

Starbuck’s “destiny” seemed to be part of that resolution…but if she’s dead that’s presumably pointless screen time that ate into what could have been something more related to the plot (if there is one).

[Oakminster]

@joemama24_98

Also, she took damage in the second sequence…I don’t think this was imagined like in the first. Where did that come from?

That’s an interesting point. As I recall, it looked like there was a bullet hole in the canopy…it was round, with spidery cracks spreading in the glass. Yet an actual bullet coming in there should have taken her head off–and depressurized the cockpit, blood splatter, and no more radio calls to Lee. Dunno how that squares with the other stuff we saw. There was a suggestion that maybe her viper was damaged by the storm…possibly a lightning strike…maybe even golfball sized hail…but that still should have depressurized the cockpit…unless the damage was imaginary too.

[Unauthorized_Cinnamon]

@Lightray

The difference in these two was that this episode of BSG foreshadowed Kara’s Kroaking so much that it wasn’t at all unexpected. . . .

I’m not willing to take Moore referring to it as the “phantom raider” as an explicit confirmation that it was a raider that only existed in Kara’s head.

Yes, I agree with everything you just said. Especially that “nothing but the rain” bit - we were like, “Oh yeah, she’s gonna croak.”

[simster]

@Oakminster

That’s an interesting point. As I recall, it looked like there was a bullet hole in the canopy…it was round, with spidery cracks spreading in the glass. Yet an actual bullet coming in there should have taken her head off–and depressurized the cockpit, blood splatter, and no more radio calls to Lee. Dunno how that squares with the other stuff we saw. There was a suggestion that maybe her viper was damaged by the storm…possibly a lightning strike…maybe even golfball sized hail…but that still should have depressurized the cockpit…unless the damage was imaginary too.

IIRC, there was also damage to her helmet glass…

[levdrakon]

@Oakminster

That’s an interesting point. As I recall, it looked like there was a bullet hole in the canopy…it was round, with spidery cracks spreading in the glass. Yet an actual bullet coming in there should have taken her head off–and depressurized the cockpit, blood splatter, and no more radio calls to Lee. Dunno how that squares with the other stuff we saw. There was a suggestion that maybe her viper was damaged by the storm…possibly a lightning strike…maybe even golfball sized hail…but that still should have depressurized the cockpit…unless the damage was imaginary too.

There was a “hard deck” which means the planet wasn’t a gas giant. I got the impression it was a planet somewhat like Venus and Tigh mentioned the pressure would squash her on the surface so actually her cockpit would have pressurized, or super-pressurized, if there is such a term.

At any rate, if the Raider was imaginary I’d assume the hole in her canopy was imaginary too.

We were shown both the Raider and the explosion from Apollo’s vantage point. One’s supposed to be real but not the other? That’s either just plain sloppy or there’s more to it.

We know the Lord’s of Kobol can make holographic/transdimensional/teleportational observatories. Once we go that route, who knows what we or Apollo actually saw.

[Oakminster]

I don’t think there’s any evidence Lee ever saw the Raider. He called a tally ho on Starbuck’s viper. He called no joy on the bandit, and never retracted that call. Had he seen a Raider, he would have called it. (Yes, I know I’m using American fighter jock slang instead of BSG terminology. Indulge me.)

There is a scene where the Raider is visible through his canopy, but the point of view is Starbuck’s. She calls tally, and breaks hard to engage. He did not break on the bandit, and I don’t think he ever saw it…because I don’t think it was there.

[Unauthorized_Cinnamon]

@Oakminster

There is a scene where the Raider is visible through his canopy, but the point of view is Starbuck’s. She calls tally, and breaks hard to engage. He did not break on the bandit, and I don’t think he ever saw it…because I don’t think it was there.

I agree that Lee never seems to have seen the raider. However, there is a third-person POV shot after the shot you refer to, shortly before Kara asplodes. The shot you mention is from Kara’s POV, so it could be a hallucination, but the later shot is from outside Lee’s viper. Maybe Lee didn’t notice it, but the audience can see it.

So I think **joemama ** has it - either RDM is messing with our heads, or they are having behind-the-scenes confusion as to what is supposed to be happening here.

Maybe in the reruns, the raider will disappear from that scene . . .

[Lightray]

I would think that it would cost more effort and money to put the Raider into the shot, rather than leave it out. So someone had to make the decision to put it into that shot. So I think we’re supposed to know that it was really there, and that Starbuck is thereby vindicated.

In that shot, Apollo is frantically looking for Starbuck when the Raider swings into view, followed by Starbuck swinging into view, whereupon he reports that he sees her. Seems like he’d’ve seen it, but maybe his vision got damaged by the type II diabetes he suffered while eating all those bon-bons on the Pegasus.

[Sweetums]

@simster

IIRC, there was also damage to her helmet glass…

I don’t remember seeing damage to her helmet. I did however (I don’t have the ability to tape, so I admit I am not sure), see what looked like a burned hole in the seat to Starbuck’s left, which I guess would corespond to where the hole in the windscreen was.

[Oakminster]

@Unauthorized Cinnamon

So I think **joemama ** has it - either RDM is messing with our heads, or they are having behind-the-scenes confusion as to what is supposed to be happening here.

Maybe in the reruns, the raider will disappear from that scene . . .

I don’t think RDM is trying to mindfuck us on this, but I will buy into some confusion in the editing process. The shot shown might or might not been part of the original sequence. RDM talks about the original script having Starbuck make three flights into the atmosphere…which got cut down to two in the final version.
As far the hard deck mentioned–they are not talking about the planet surface. The term “hard deck” as used here, seems to refer to a minimum altitude for safe flight. Starbuck did not fly into the ground–she got too low, and the pressure blew up her viper. I’m not sure the science guys would agree that such a thing is possible as portrayed, but there is much to not like about this abortion of an episode.

[joemama24_98]

I’m becoming more convinced there’s more to this story. I think several elements are key:

The third person view of both her Viper and the Raider, which suggests they are real. Ditto for the damage to her ship.

The fact it was a heavy raider, which can carry people (either Leoben or Kara, or both) rather than a normal raider, which has been the recon vehicle of choice in the past episodes. This at least suggests that Leoben was involved (and given the view of the Raider, real.) All things equal, I think a normal Raider would have been a better match for Vipers…I can’t imagine that they would use anything else unless they needed to carry someone.

Given that he *was * involved…what would his motives be? I doubt revenge - he maintained his efforts with Kara on New Caprica despite that she offed him multiple times. His words in the dream sequences seemed to suggest that he believes she is a Cylon, and would be resurrected.

The footage gave us no reason to expect she survived, so unless they pull the Dukes of Hazzard cliffhanger crap (where the following week’s episode shows the prior cliffhanger with a previously unseen solution for the untenable situation those good ol’ boys got themselves into), I’m going to wager that we see her again, likely waking up in a tub of goo, or somehow connected to the Lords of Kobol, whatever they might be.

Also, one thing that would bug me about the show is how they overuse “hallucinations”, unless everyone having them turns out to be a Cylon. Either everyone is a bit wacky, or the Cylons have a way to manifest themselves either in such (or be part of such). Hallucinating characters have been:

Caprica Six: who we know is a Cylon
Deanna: who we know is a Cylon
Baltar: who could still go either way (and I’m guessing he is)
The President: (perhaps a Cylon, but I don’t buy it. She was on hallucinogenic
drugs at the time as well
Starbuck: If she returns, it will either have to be a cop-out on the writing/editing, a supernatural event, or as a Cylon.

Then again, maybe she’s just dead, the whole thing was in her head, etc. I suppose if thats what they wanted they could have killed her in a much more convincing way, but maybe thats the idea.

[silenus]

Nah. At the start of Season 4, Lee will wake up, hear the shower running, pull back the curtain and there will be Starbuck, soaping herself up and asking how he slept.

[Cervaise]

@joemama24_98

Hallucinating characters have been:

Add Adama to the list, sort of, since we saw him just a couple of weeks ago daydreaming intensely about his dead wife on his anniversary. Not a true hallucination, exactly, as there was no suggestion he was confused about what was in his head and what wasn’t, but still pretty “vision-y” as far as this show goes.

[cerberus]

A hard deck is merely an altitude below which it is forbidden to fly during a flight. In this case, the hard deck was placed to avoid having atmospheric pressure squish the vipers.

[butler1850]

@cerberus

A hard deck is merely an altitude below which it is forbidden to fly during a flight. In this case, the hard deck was placed to avoid having atmospheric pressure squish the vipers.

In addtion it was mentioned on the bridge that if they went below the hard deck, they wouldn’t have enough “smash” (jet jockey term for speed/energy) to escape the gravity well.

[Cat_Whisperer]

@carnivorousplant

He has.

:smack: I knew that, too. Okay, Jack Bauer getting killed and STAYING dead.

If she flew too low and the pressure got too high, wouldn’t her ship implode rather than explode?

[Cervaise]

Presumably there are fuel and ignition systems that take offense to being crushed and crumpled.

[easy_e]

@joemama24_98

The footage gave us no reason to expect she survived, so unless they pull the Dukes of Hazzard cliffhanger crap (where the following week’s episode shows the prior cliffhanger with a previously unseen solution for the untenable situation those good ol’ boys got themselves into), I’m going to wager that we see her again, likely waking up in a tub of goo, or somehow connected to the Lords of Kobol, whatever they might be.

Given that Starbuck’s Viper disappears from DRADIS (and the heavy raider never appears on DRADIS) before Lee makes visual contact, there could be some time for a bit of switcheroo. Much has been made about the fact that the Viper we see blow up has an intact canopy (meaning no ejection), but just because we see a Viper blow up doesn’t mean that the Viper we see explode is the one Starbuck was in.

[simster]

@easy e

Given that Starbuck’s Viper disappears from DRADIS (and the heavy raider never appears on DRADIS) before Lee makes visual contact, there could be some time for a bit of switcheroo. Much has been made about the fact that the Viper we see blow up has an intact canopy (meaning no ejection), but just because we see a Viper blow up doesn’t mean that the Viper we see explode is the one Starbuck was in.

That would actually be worse… we know of only two vipers in the air at the time, and one possible bogey, for them to do a “it was a different viper switcheroo” would be an even bigger cheat to an already mostly worthless episode, it would truly indicate that the writers have lost all edge that they once so gloriously danced upon.

[OpalCat]

@Lightray

I’m not willing to take Moore referring to it as the “phantom raider” as an explicit confirmation that it was a raider that only existed in Kara’s head. The guy’s often sloppy in his podcasts (still couldn’t pronounce Kara’s name right), and – apparently – quite often somewhat sauced, too.

“Phantom raider” could be used as adequate shorthand for “raider that everybody else (but Kara) thinks is a phantom.”

This is exactly what I was going to say. It’s the raider that was hard to find, not 100% certain to exist, only one person had seen it, blah blah blah. “Phantom raider” is a good descriptive term that works equally well if the ship was imaginary or if it was real.