I think there was more of William inhabiting that corpse than we’ve given the Peroxided One credit for- not the soul, but the personality, which, while definitely a total wuss, was (as far as I could tell) was a very sweet, gentle one, and a hopeless romantic. Even when Spike was evil, he still had a lot of William left in him; note his lovingness toward Drusilla, his befriending Joyce in “Lover’s Walk” (still one of my all time favorite scenes- “Do you have any of those little marshmallows?” I’ve been maintaining that Spike had held onto a lot more of his humanity after being sired than most vampires do, and it was that humanity that drove him to get his soul back.
I don’t Spike has been truly evil since about the middle of S5. His love for Buffy did change him. In D & D terms, I would describe him as chaotic neutral. He did have natural tendencies toward evil, but, with some exceptions, like the demon-egg business in “As You Were”, he has been choosing to do good, albeit with an ulterior motive- he hoped to gain Buffy’s love. Ultimately, that human personality proved to be stronger than the demon-essence. I think that now that he has a soul, his natural tendency will be to do good. Right now, though, TETD is taking advantage of his mental instability and emotional vulnerability in order to confuse and control him.
BTW, something I’ve been wondering about vampires in the Buffyverse- in the Mythos According to Giles, the first vampire was created when a demon fed on human blood and, somehow mixed its essence with the human (can’t remember the exact words, it’s been a while since I’ve seen that particular episode). So, is the demon that inhabits and animates each individual vampire’s body actually an extension of the essence of that original demon, or does an individual demon animate each vampire corpus? Right now, I’m tending to lean toward the first interpretation.
I think a soul in the Buffy-verse connects the owner to the source of good. Just like vampires are connected to an all consuming evil anyone with a soul is connected to an all consuming good. Now it is possible that other soul types exist that plug people into different cosmic forces, but that’s an added complication that’s not relevant to the basic idea.
So newly risen vampires loose their soul. They are the same person in a very real way. I’d say there is even continuity of consciousness. It just happens that they are now connected to an all consuming evil thanks to the demon in them. As we saw in Pylea the demon part isn’t coherent in the slightest. It wants to eat things and avoid harm.
When a vampire gains a soul they are plugged back into the source of good. All of a sudden they feel a connection to compassion and deceny that is deeper than any selfish desire. Naturally this isn’t fun. Part of them wants to drag the universe into a firey oblivion and part of them wants to make the world a better place. The personality and consciousness are the same but the experiences become fundementally different. Evil is no longer the only thing that guides them.
Before a soul Spike did evil things but also did good things. He did them out of love, specifically love for Buffy. Now however he can do things out of love for good, if he chooses to. Still just because the option has become available and the connection is there doesn’t mean he has to be good. He merely has the option now.
Oh and vampires have individual demons. On Plyea you see Angel in a purer demonic form and the natives of that dimension recognize the sort of demon it is. I think vampire blood causes one to grow in the person to be turned, which is why it takes a while for them to rise.
I know I’m coming late to this party, but I always felt this was a bit of a rationalization, for Buffy’s sake (and perhaps the sake of the audience), so that it would be “okay” for Buffy to love Angel again. Giles, who arguably knows more about these things, certainly didn’t rush to forgive Angel. Although he did forgive him eventually. Indeed, I would argue that Angel himself would disagree with that statement. His whole demeanor on his own series suggests that he sees his redemption as an ongoing process. Note that Angel acknowledges that Holtz had every right to be pissed at him.
As for Spike, well…you’re spoiled and I’m not, so, as you say, it’s kind of hard for us to have an even discussion. But I’m kind of hoping that Spike is, of his own volition, turning evil again. If only because I think that’s where the more interesting story lies.
I’m just brainstorming here, but: Maybe getting a soul (and thus a conscience) hasn’t led Spike to seek redemption. Maybe it’s led him to decide that he’s unredeemable, and thus he might as well act the part. Maybe he’s so horrified at what he’s done that he’s trying to provoke Buffy into killing him–a sort of suicide by slayer, if you will. Maybe he’s able to look back on his life, and has consciously decided that even though William may have been “good”, William was a wimp who got walked all over. Now that he can compare being good to being evil, he’s decided he likes evil better.
I’m not suggesting that any of those are what’s really going on. But they are possible directions that this story could go. And (to me, at least) they’re all more interesting than having him get a soul and become a tortured good guy, since that’s really just a retread of the Angel story.
The problem with that scenerio is that Spike isn’t the type to commit suicide by slayer. He can fight Buffy, he can hurt her. He doesn’t need to provoke her, all he needs is to attack her. They fight a good fight, and she ultimately wins. I think that’s how Spike would like to go out—with some pride, dignity, and a real warrior’s death.
It’s just not Spike’s MO to wait around for a fight. He has always sought her out…except for the one time he didn’t want to fight her (when he was trying to cure Dru.) “I’d rather fight you anyway.” “Mutual” (Sorry, my favorite line…)
Spike is also impatient. Why wait around to see if she figures it out? There was no guarentee thta any of his victims would A)Run into her and B)name drop. (And why would his victims know his name anyway)? Shoot, SPike once said that he doesn’t like turning people because it’s “too much work”. He could just start draining people and it may take Buffy quite awhile to figure out that increased vampire activity=chipped, soulled Spike.
The audience really has no idea if that’s how Spike would act with a soul. We know he’s crazy—but that’s probably just because of Morphy. I doubt hsi apparent insanity has anything to do with the soul. Plus we only have a few minutes of airtime per episode. They haven’t really gave the audience a chance to get to know who this creature is, and how he would act on his own free will. (Though we’ve had glimpses, like in Help when he showed up to help save Cassie.)
Mr.Atoz, I don’t think Spike with a soul would be a retread of Angel, simply because Spike and Angel are two different personalities.
I’ve said this so many times, I’m starting to bore myself, but here goes. Spike without a soul was a lot more human than Angel without a soul. Angel had his soul forced upon him to torment him, Spike got his back of his own volition, out of love for Buffy, and endured some pretty nasty and painful trials to get it. Angel, as far as I can tell, tries as far as he can to play by societiy’s rules. Spike, even with a soul, could never do that. He would live by his own internal code. Angel’s soul is leased, and that lease expires when he experiences a moment of true happiness. Spike owns the deed to his soul. No anti-happiness clause (Joss has said it, so I know it must be so), so, barring him running into a sorcerer or witch with an attitude and the power to take it from him, Spike probably isn’t going to be losing his soul, even if he does shag Buffy again.
In D & D terms, Angel would be Lawful Good, soulful Spike would be Chaotic Good. Well, once he gets out from under the thumb of TETD (Dungeons and Dragons terminology can be so useful in discussions like this. I’m glad I read the DM guide)
I completely agree with this. I’ve got a theory about how souls work in the Buffyverse, which I have dubbed the Jello Mould Theory on the Transmigration of Souls. See, a person’s personality is like (you guessed it) a Jello mould. And the person’s soul is the Jello. A normal human has, say, strawberry flavored Jello for their soul. When a person is vamped, all that strawberry Jello is scooped out, and a nastier flavor of Jello replaces it. Pork, maybe. (Occasionally, a little strawberry Jello is left behind, like in the Spike prior to this season. Other times, the strawberry Jello is scrubbed out with steel wool, like with Angelus.) However, in both cases, the Jello has the same shape: it’s still the same person, he’s just a different flavor.
Um, my soul’s lime flavored. If I ever become a vampire, I want a squid-flavored demon, that way if any of my lime-flavored soul stays stuck in the jello mould of my personality, it will taste ok with the squid.
I know this, to be true, because when I cook squid, I always add the juice of a coupla limes.
LOL. I think that’s in response to the legions of fans that have been complaining about the lack of screentime. There is even an S.O.S site (Save our Spike.) It’s a letter campaign to let evreybody know we want more Spike! (No, as a matter of fact, I haven’t crossed that line yet.)
My understanding is that it is the symbol of Ba’al, also known as Nimrod, the Sun God. Conspiracy theorists have linked this to Xander calling Spike a nimrod in the ep where Spike moves in with Xander.
I’m hoping this is sheer humor … Nimrod was a strongman in the bible, and, more to the point of Xander’s usage, a nonsensical term used to mean “numbskull” in Warner Bros. cartoons.
What Telemark said. It’s in the Bible. Genesis 10: 8-9 "Cush became the father of Nimrod; he was the first on earth to become a mighty warrior. He was a mighty hunter before the Lord; therefore it is said “Like Nimrod a mighty hunter before the Lord”
There, see, Iooked it up for you.
pepperlandgirl, I read some of that fanfic. “My Torment and My Peace” made me cry.
You made me cry over fanfic, Joss damn you!!!
OK, now Clem. Where is Clem? I haven’t seen any Clem - related spoilage.
Clem is missing. Somebody had better go and find him.
