Buffy 11/12/02 - Conversations with dead people

Okay, I knew the behind-the-scenes reasons why Tara didn’t come back to Willow, but I thought the explanation they used in the episode worked even better than if Amber Benson had been back. For one thing, I teared up when Willow was just talking to the air and crying (What was it Joss said in the commentary for Innocence? “There is nothing sadder in this world than when Aly makes her big eyes” or something like that?). It would have completely changed the energy if Amber Benson had been there instead of Azura Skye. Plus, and this is what really sold me on the idea, having Tara urging Willow to commit suicide would have been even more unbelievable and less convincing to Willow. When Cassie said that, after her death, Willow could see Tara, it provided at least some motivation for WIllow to end her own life. I don’t know, I thought it worked, but, after seeing all this, it seems like I was the only one.

I think this is the first ever episode that Xander has not been in. It’s weird that they’d wait ‘til season freakin’ seven to make him a second-tier character. I didn’t actually miss him that much, but the Scoobies weren’t, well, The Scoobies without the three high school friends. Maybe Nicholas Brendon just wanted the week off…

I’m tired of fluffy-puppy-with-bad-teeth Spike and I hope he’s evil! There! I said it! I really have never understood the Spike worship that goes on in the fandom, and on these boards when Thea Logica and pepperlandgirl (amoung others) get going. Spike was much cooler up 'til the end of season four, when he was, y’know, actually evil. I think it was right around the time that he fell in love with Buffy that I stopped being interested in not only him, but also in Buffy’s love life and, really, Buffy herself.

For the record, Dawn is either sixteen or seventeen now (she supposed to be fifteen when she was created) and Michelle Trachtenberg is very definitely seventeen. Wait a year, and then you (and I) can lust after her.

Here’s my vision of a Buffy-less Buffy future: Wes and Lilah kidnap Fred from Angel. While they’re on the lam, they meet Willow who’s off, I dunno, doing something adorable with Faith. The four of them, with the possible inclusion of a non-whiny Dawn, go off to fight evil somewhere um… Ooo! Somewhere tropical, so that the womenfolk would have to wear lots of bikinis. Yeah. And then Willow helps Faith and Fred explore their depest desires, yeah… And then-- Wait, when did this become slash?! Oh, it would be cool if they were, like, hunting a newly re-evilled Spike, though. Spike and Angelus! I really liked Angelus! Okay, I’m just going to go ahead and admit that I have no clue what they could do without a Buffy, but I’m willing to put faith in Joss.

Anyway, to summarize: Conversations with Dead People good. Anchovies not. Anchovy song good. Silly toothless Spike not. Willow’s conversation good. Lack of Xander not good, but not all that bad. Lack of Anya good, though.

If ME spends over 3 seasons in developing Spike’s character only to turn him into a 2-dimensional bad guy, I’ll be extremely disappointed and angry. It just doesn’t make any sense,and that’s why I don’t think they’ll do it.

Thea, My Torment and My Peace always gets me too. :wink:

I demand that Charisma Carpenter be in any spin-off. I admit that Cordy was a real bitch the first and half of 2nd season. But as she got to be a more complex personality, I warmed to her, and since I like my women to be bitches (in the positive sense of the word), I guess my attraction is the same as we see some women show for Spike. Bad Willow (as vamp or Wicca) is also a lot more attractive, than normal Will. Lilah looks like she just stepped out of a psoh perfume commercial and does nothing for me. Faith is kinda yummy, at times. Fred is about as interesting as a carboard box.
I also demand Giles to be in a spin-off.

And Wizard. I remember JW saying that too. He also said something like: “Whenever we don’t know what to do for a plot point, we always put Willow in danger.”

How about a spin-off called… (bad joke coming up) … Angel’s Angels … (pause for guffaws) with Willow, Faith and Cordy…

The only legitimate plot-related reason I can see for Spike being evil again is so he can finally kill Xander.

Xander, carpentry skills and increased job responsibilities aside, has probably matured the least of the three original Scoobies. He couldn’t work through his fears over the possibility that marriage to Anya would be not all blissful, so instead of talking to her about it (Anya, I know this isn’t the greatest time to say this, but I think we should postpone the wedding, there’s some things we need to talk about. Maybe we can get married next Thursday?) He was downright mean to Spike, even though he grudgingly agreed to let him move into the apartment with him ; apparently it didn’t occur to him that you might want to be at least coldly polite to someone who has recently been re-ensouled and has spent the last several months living in the SHS basement, bug-shagging crazy, with only TETD for company. He hasn’t learned to step back and examine a situation, he forms opinions as a knee-jerk reaction, and no contradictory evidence will change it. And he’s a hypocrite. He’s downright hateful to Spike, even when Spike is trying to be helpful, but he spent almost three seasons in a relationship with a former vengeance demon who has probably killed ten times as many people as the Peroxided One. I mean, hell, at least Spike ate the people he killed. Anya left a trail of mutilated corpses of men, many of whom probably did nothing more that break up with thier girlfriends when they realized the relationship was going nowhere.

I’ve been trying to read this thread for 5 days, and I kept getting locked out.

I think the key moment for this whole season was when Giles and Willow were working on her redemption( and she still ain’t there yet folks).

Everything is connected. The good, the bad, the ugly, the insane.
The insane have always been more connected than everyone else-- not having a sanity filter lets in too much pain and suffering and insight (remember that ep where Dawn was walking around the mental ward, and all the patienst couuld see her as a big ball of energy? connections baby)

Spike went insane when he got his soul-- because when you’ve got a soul, you’ve got to LEARN how to tone down the empathy to a functional level. The “evil” characters like Warren and the Mayor have learned how to turn their emapthy rigt down low, and deny their soul (which the Mayor did because his wife died, IIRC).

Demons and vamps are connected too–they’ve got to be, because every single vamp that comes out of the ground knows far, far too much about things they knew nothing about in their mortal life.

If even someone as ostensibly good as Willow can accidentally tap into such mind-crushing pain and evil that she wants to wipe out the world (or just sob in Giles’ arms), then it’s gotta be a snap for real evil to twist the connections that good, soul-possessing, trusting people have.

TETD tried to pull a fast one on willow-- and faied because she’s been parcticing at connections.

It succeeded on pulling the wool over Buffy’s eyes, becasue she’s been trying to deny connections every since she came back from the grave.

Dawn has ALWAYS been afraid of being left alone ever since she started to realize that she’s not really a real girl-- and she got the knockout punch.

As for Spike-- not enough happened in the ep for us to know anything concrete at all. The more you speculate, the more TETD is messing with your own head.

Sit back and enjoy the ride people. Remember to buckle in. And consider speculation to be the same as sticking your arms out the window :smiley:

The mayor went as far as to sell his. (I can’t remember the exact quote, but he referred to it in Lovers Walk and Lessons.

Oh, BTW. Aimee Mann is going to be performing Pavlov’s Bell while Spike is in The Bronze listening to it.
I won’t post the whole lyrics but this part is interesting when discussing Morphy (3rd verse and chorus0
*

Oh Mario, why if this is nothing
I find it hard to dismiss
If you’re what I need
Then only you can save me
So come on baby give me the fix
And let’s just talk about it…
Because nobody knows that’s how I nearly fell
Trading clothes
And rinking Pavlov’s Bell.
History shows there’s not a chance in hell
So tell me
That’s how I nearly fell
By ringing Pavlov’s Bell
*

Interesting connection, in my head, between the idea that the Big Bad is the Devil himself and the baddie in Angel was refered to in the Title as The Beast. The Beast is one of the Big Baddies in the Revelation of John.

So who’s the great whore?

The first step is admitting you have a problem. :wink:

Hey, I never denied it. :wink: