David Fury said specifically at the Bronzebeta last night that Spike was always meant to get the soul. He should know…he wrote the ep. Joss Whedon said it last summer. Jane has said it. Spike has said it on screen. It’s part of cannon.
They told James marsters that Spike was getting the chip out…that’s why he acted like he was getting the chip out. I don’t know why they gave James that misdirection…well, I do. They wanted the ending to be a big surprise. It backfired, because the Big Spike Fans who pay careful attention to every single little detail of Spike’s life weren’t fooled, and the casual fans were confused, and the rabid anti-Spike faction still don’t buy it.
Now if I were an evil television producer what I’d do is not resolve that plot point. Have Giles show up in Sunnydale next week. Did he survive? Is it the Big Bad? Keep the fans arguing for the next six months until it’s revealed.
I’m slow but I’m completely in the Spike went to get his soul camp now. The fact that he admitted it is pretty much what I consider canon. James Marsters completely fooled me with his delivery making me think that Spike wanted the chip out.
This is Fury’s exact quote
Clarity is emerging. My confusion is slowly being lifted. The Bad has me baffled all over the place this season, particularly since I’m spoiler free and don’t even like to read interviews because, well, just because. No real good reason. And by the way, you guys (mostly The Gaspode, Thea, pepperlandgirl) do great work keeping spoilers in those nifty boxes. I may not get everything out of an episode my first viewing, but everyone in this thread gives me stuff to think about and answers my lame-o questions. Thanks!
pepperlandgirl, it was a trap, not one that Spike set, but one he participated in. He was certainly influenced by Morphy, we know that, Buffy is pretty sure of that, but all those Vamps still died. Why should Buffy put her own life and the lives of others in jeapardy because of the hope that Spike will be able to resist his demons and Morphy. He clearly couldn’t resist in the past.
It’s a good plot, lots of tension and moral ambiguity. I like it. But I think it’s silly to get mad at Xander for behaving in a perfectly rational manner. If Spike does kill again, will Buffy then be responsible for the death because she didn’t kill Spike when she had the chance?
I sort of think it analogous to Old Yeller, he didn’t deserve to die at the end but it had to be done. Spike is in a grey area, but I can certainly see Xander’s POV. I’d’ve staked Spike after finding out that he’d started killing again. Like Buffy said, “Sorry, it’s my job.” I think that line was there for a reason. It points out that Spike is beyond her job, she isn’t just following the rules and knows that there may be consequences.
As for Dawn and her mom’s message, I think it will turn out to be true. If they pull a switcheroo like they did in Angel (“I changed the prophecy”) it’ll feel cheap to me. But like all good prophecies, it’ll won’t be fulfilled as expected.
Any ideas why that particular song Spike hummed, sang and the old guy played on the harmonica helped trigger Spike’s evil deeds? And does it seem that the evil is bringing victims to Spike to tempt him sometimes. For example, the girl that had the cigarettes, she might have been sent to tempt him. What do you all think?
Oooh, now there’s some creepiness that I can get behind! I mean, having Dead!Giles would be a shame, but that would throw a real twist into the Scoobyverse, especially if the plot were to follow Just Some Guy’s interpretation. Giles is the one person they can all trust (even after that CoW 18th birthday stunt). What would happen if they were to learn that he were actively working against them; that it wasn’t Giles at all?
Cool.
My answer is pure speculation, so don’t worry:
I think it has something to with Drusilla. One of the big spec/spoiler guys said that there was a reason that Dru was the “S2 Big Bad” in Lessons that had nothing to do with crossover rules. She’s also the only one who touched him and she’s the one who mentioned “singing their songs.” The reminded of Dru too.
Honestly, it wouldn’t surprise me if she somehow allied herself with Morphy.
I don’t think their lives are in jeopardy at all, and obviously neither does Buffy. She learned her lesson before in S2 (insert standard I Hate Angel message) about waiting to kill a vamp that needs it. Based on that precedent, and the fact that Buffy is not a stupid girl, I trust her judgement.
And I think Xander should too. She’s the leader of their merry little group. It’s ultimately her decision about which demons live and die. Xander may risk his life, but he does out of choice. Buffy does it because she’s the Chosen One.
I think what really bothers me about Xander is that it seems more and more that he doesn’t trust Buffy or her judgement. They are fighting a war, and what if one day he takes the next step from just questioning her actions to actively ignoring her instructions? This is besides the whole Spike/Anya issue. I’ve always liked Xander until very recently, and while the bone of contention tends to be Spike, I think it is indicitive of a larger problem. If there is dessention in the ranks, how are they going to defeat the biggest big bad ever?
What if this constant whinging, questioning, and general jerkhood puts their lives in danger?
Sorry pepper but I don’t see any reason why Buffy gets final decisions on things. Giles certainly didn’t think so with Glory, the Scoobies did OK when Buffy was taking a dirt nap, and frankly, she’s made some lousy decisions in the past. I think one of the main points here people’s judgements (including Buffy’s) are subject to question, don’t trust anything. Morphy used Spike’s acceptence of Buffy’s judgement to make him do bad things, remember?
Some lives were lost, unless it’s revealed that it’s all Morphy people that really didn’t exist. But that seems unlikely. If Spike had been killed, those people would have been alive, right? The Scoobies are in danger, Buffy thinks the benefits outway the danger. Xander and others may disagree, and since he’s less likely to defend himself against Spike it’s more of a concern. In the discussion with the shramp last week Buffy talked about feeling “better” than everyone else. Just like Faith felt regular humans were “less” than a Slayer. Not a good precedent.
BTW, I love having these discussions. What good is a show if everyone agrees on the interpretations?
We’ve already seen him do this in Anya’s episode (I’m terrible at remembering titles). Buffy still did what she had to do. She was the Law and Xander could do nothing about it. Only Willow was able to save the day through her quick thinking.
The only thing Xander really contributes is moral support and a little gopher/grunt work. However much he might disagree with Buffy, I can’t see him ignoring instructions from her on personal reasons when the world needs saving. He always seemed more goal oriented than people oriented. Sort of like George Mason on 24. (A great 2 hour block on Tuesday nights BTW)
Maybe Morphy’s seen “The Manchurian Candidate.” 
As much as I don’t like Xander, I think a really interesting Spike/Xander dynamic is starting to shape up this season. Xander hates Spike, wuuld probably stake him hiven half an excuse, but he took the Peroxided One into his home, and teamed up with him to get to the bottom of R.J.'s power over women, stop Buffy from killing Principal Wood, and get The Jacket. Also, I think Spike’s willingness to submit to being staked will not be lost on Xander- even in the wretched preview for next week, Spike, in total seriousness says, “You have to kill me”
I can very easily see Spike and Xander going into a combat situation together where there is a danger that Spke may turn on Buffy and the Scooby Gang, and Spike making damn good and sure that Xander is armed with a crossbow because when it comes down to brass tacks, Xander would be the only one who could be counted on to kill him if it were necessary.
No, I haven’t seen any spoilers to this effect, but it seems to be the way the dynamic in their relationship is shaping up. I’ll say it again. I think Xander was cool in this episode. I really do believe he was trying not to allow his hatred of Spike to cloud his judgement. I don’t think he succeeded, but he did try.
I don’t read Xander quite like that. I think he has a very specific function in the Scooby group: the voice of dissent. He’s usually ignored and/or overruled, but he at least makes sure that everyone doesn’t get too tunnel-visioned in whatever they’re doing. He’s like Scully: the prod that keeps everyone aware that there are other solutions/interpretations/whatever.
As for Spike going to get his soul or going to get rid of his chip, I’ve always maintained that he went originally to get his chip removed, and only realized during the test itself that what he really wanted was to get his soul back so that he might have a shot, however small, at getting Buffy to love him. I figure that while the flaming fist guy and his friends were beating him down, the thought of going back and killing Buffy wasn’t enough to keep him going, but the thought of her loving him was. So at the end, the demon gave him what he really wanted, even if he didn’t know it was what he really wanted.
What amazes me is that every week, we crank out 150 posts about this one hour long TV-show, which isn’t even on one of the major networks in the US and it doesn’t even have very good ratings, and from what I gather, never had.
Hell, I just did a search for “clones” to get an idea about how much we wrote earlier this year about AOTC. It was about 250 posts. I guess the number would be higher if a did a more extensive search, but still…
Clearly, the Dopers are an insane lot, or this is very, very good television.
I’m wondering about this myself–the particular song must have some significance, although I’m not sure what yet. The song, by the way, is called “Early One Morning.” It’s an old folk song (Welsh, I think), about a girl pining for a lover who’s been untrue to her. Which is interesting to think about in terms of Buffy and Spike’s relationship. A key line from the refrain (which Fake Spike recited in dialogue as well as in song) is “How could you use a poor maiden so?” So who’s the maiden? Is it Buffy, who’s being manipulated by Morphy (love that name!)? Or does it refer to the various girls Spike has been siring–that he’s been using, in effect? We’ll see.
I do like Xander, but I agree there’s an interesting dynamic. I like the scenes Spike and Xander have together–I think they play off each other well. It’s interesting to me that even though Xander probably would “stake him given half an excuse,” Xander didn’t advocate rushing off to stake Spike right away in this episode. He did assume Spike was guilty, but all he did was urge Buffy to be sure she knew what was going on before deciding what to do.
The more I think about it, the more I start to believe that Spike’s popularity might have been the worst thing to ever happen to this show. As much as I enjoyed Spike in seasons 2-4, the need to keep him around has forced the writers into some awful contrivances. Realistically, he should have been staked at the end of season 4, as he had shown that even with the chip he was still dangerous. He certainly should have been staked during season 5, once it became apparent that he was actively trying to get the chip out (I don’t remember the name of the episode–the one where he tried to make the Initiative doctor remove it).
Sure, Spike is very popular with fans, and they did have a story about Spike’s growth that they wanted to tell. But that external need to keep him on the show has forced the internal logic of the story to suffer, in my opinion. Every time Buffy declined to kill him after he’d done something demonstrably evil, it made her look all the more stupid and short-sighted. She routinely kills vampires fresh from their graves, who haven’t hurt anyone yet. But she doesn’t stake Spike, who’s killed two slayers and countless other people, and tried to kill her friends on multiple occasions? It doesn’t track, and it makes it that much harder to see Buffy as a heroine.
Spike needs a hug.
Giles needs to not die.
That is all.
Is that what the not-quite-dead-yet guy said?
Thank you. I couldn’t figure that out at all, and I watched it several times trying to.
A quick note, which really only shifts when Spike should have been dusted, is that the Slayer’s job isn’t to punish demons by killing them for having a high previous body count but to kill those that pose a threat to the human population. The Powers that are behind the Slayer aren’t friendly beings of justice but primal forces of death and destruction.
OK, for those of you who think Spike is boring now that he’s not evil anymore, or who think Spike’s popularity has hurt the show, or who thnk us Spike Girls are simply a bunch of airheads who are ruled by estrogen-saturated brain cells triggered by a set of washboard abs, I’m going to make a confession that I hope will at least partly explain his popularity…
[big confession] Spike is me.
What I mean by that is that I do see a lot of myself in his character, especially when I was in junior high/high school.
Well, OK, I was never really evil. But the whole never being able to fit in, not being able to find acceptance no matter where he is, being rejected by the people he cares most about (but doesn’t want to admit it), putting up a massive front to cover for his insecurities and compensate for his weakness/powerlessness, and, oh, yes, the pain of unrequited love.
I can identify. Heavily.
Also, I’ve been through a lot of changes in the way I live my life, in my personal beliefs, and I know what it is to find myself up against people can’t accept or realize that, yes, people can and do change, fundamentally, from the inside out.
So, yeah, in a lot of ways, Spike is me. [/big confession]
OK, go ahead, think I’m a geek, or that there might be something a little twisted in my sexuality if I identify so heavily with an opposite-sexed character. I don’t care.
[sub]Of course, there’s also the washboard abs, and the fact that I’m a sucker for a peroxide blonde with an English accent, however well-acted[/sub]